Why the exaggeration in the sutras?

[agorman]

I'm reading the Lotus Sutra and it's really annoying; the more I read it and the more I hate it. It mentions millions of buddhas teaching for millions of eons to billions of people that gives them millions of offerings in pure lands (planets) made of jewels (why so many details?), flowers falling down like rain for eons, etc. etc. I wonder if that's destined to be some sort of guided meditation where you concentrate in all those details to reach some altered state of consciousness. Or to filter out people who's not really determinate to read the book.

There's even a mention of a pure land in chapter 8 where there are no women nor sexual desire (!). If the intention is getting rid of all desires and live in a place where you can just meditate, then why making a pure land full of flowers and jewels? Better make a desert of black sand! LOL!

 

[crossfire]

Even though I'm Mahayana, I usually stick to the Pali suttas.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Who dd that? Buddha or his disciples?

 

[Osal]

I'm reading the Lotus Sutra and it's really annoying; the more I read it and the more I hate it.

Maybe you should stop reading it, then. LOL

 

[agorman]

Maybe you should stop reading it, then. LOL

That would be the obvious choice; but I'm stubborn... I want to know what that "Namu myoho renge kyo" thing is really about.

 

[Osal]

It mentions millions of buddhas teaching for millions of eons to billions of people that gives them millions of offerings in pure lands (planets) made of jewels (why so many details?), flowers falling down like rain for eons, etc. etc. I wonder if that's destined to be some sort of guided meditation

Yes. Many Mahayana sutras are intended to be meditation guides. The details you read aren't intended to be literal, but rather can have meaning beyond the literal.

Apart from that, they don't make particularly good reading.

where you concentrate in all those details to reach some altered state of consciousness.

No, that what you use Peyote for. ;-)

 

[Osal]

That would be the obvious choice; but I'm stubborn... I want to know what that "Namu myoho renge kyo" thing is really about.

It's related to Amida Buddh's 13th Vow. A Pure Land thing. You should find a Nichieren Buddhist to explain.

 

[agorman]

It's related to Amida Buddh's 13th Vow. A Pure Land thing. You should find a Nichieren Buddhist to explain.

The infinity of the life of Amitabha/Amida. Isn't Pure Land an easier practice?

 

[Osal]

The infinity of the life of Amitabha/Amida. Isn't Pure Land an easier practice?

I don't know about "easier".

I practice in a Tibetan lineage and while there is a Pure Land component, it's nothing like the Japanese-type Pure Land we're discussing.

And I don't know enough about to comment further.

 

[von bek]

It's related to Amida Buddh's 13th Vow. A Pure Land thing. You should find a Nichieren Buddhist to explain.

Namu myoho renge kyo is related to Nichiren, as you suggest in the second part of your statement, and is a chant of devotion to the Lotus Sutra itself. It is not connected to Amida's vow, though. Nichiren was actually antagonistic towards Pure Land Buddhism. He thought it wrong to honor Amida Buddha in place of Shakyamuni Buddha.

 

[Osal]

Namu myoho renge kyo is related to Nichiren, as you suggest in the second part of your statement, and is a chant of devotion to the Lotus Sutra itself. It is not connected to Amida's vow, though. Nichiren was actually antagonistic towards Pure Land Buddhism. He thought it wrong to honor Amida Buddha in place of Shakyamuni Buddha.

Learn something evry day. Thanx for the correction.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I'm reading the Lotus Sutra and it's really annoying; the more I read it and the more I hate it. It mentions millions of buddhas teaching for millions of eons to billions of people that gives them millions of offerings in pure lands (planets) made of jewels (why so many details?), flowers falling down like rain for eons, etc. etc. I wonder if that's destined to be some sort of guided meditation where you concentrate in all those details to reach some altered state of consciousness. Or to filter out people who's not really determinate to read the book.

There's even a mention of a pure land in chapter 8 where there are no women nor sexual desire (!). If the intention is getting rid of all desires and live in a place where you can just meditate, then why making a pure land full of flowers and jewels? Better make a desert of black sand! LOL!

I'm reading the full Lotus Sutra myself. I can't remember what chapter I am on; but, it does have a lot of details. A lot of it are meant to be different examples and stories so that the Bodhisattvas (devas, etc) he talks to can understand in the compacity of reaching enlightenment. When they talk about "lapez, jewels, pearls, this, that, this, that" it's just an example (which could have been shortened) of how The Buddha's disciples and lay people see him. It's an analogy of the Jewels of wisdom (rather than real Jewels) that The Buddha carries.

Remember the story of the father and his sons in a burning house? The author goes on about the jewels in which the father has and tells his children so they can come from the house. It could have been shortened; but, I think the point was to show the intensity of their dellusions and attachments.

Nam Myoho Renge Kyo is the Lotus Sutra in Japanese. I read a lot of the Pali and cross reference it to the Lotus. It also depends on what version you are reading from. The Treasure Tower chapter and a couple chapters onward are what the Daimoku (Nam Myoho Renge Kyo) is about...how all the Bohisattvas, human beings, devas, etc etc come to hear the Law.

You don't need to read the Lotus Sutra to chant Daimoku. However, in my personal opinion, if chanting Daimoku is your thing, reading the Lotus and the Pali will give you structure on what it's all about.

I dont think you can get around the language style, though. Some of it is in the Pali (so far I read) too.

 

[von bek]

Learn something evry day. Thanx for the correction.

Nichiren was an interesting guy and certainly one of the most colorful figures in the history of Japanese Buddhism. He had a nationalistic vision of Japan serving as the bastion for the spread of a great Buddhist culture around the world. He felt the Lotus Sutra was the ultimate teaching of the Buddha and its propagation was essential to the divine mission he believed to be carrying out. He wanted Buddhism to be purified in Japan, which meant his vision of the faith. He was deeply critical of Pure Land and veneration of Amida Buddha. He was an extremist, but fascinating. I recommend reading some of his work if you get the chance.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I'm reading the Lotus Sutra and it's really annoying; the more I read it and the more I hate it. It mentions millions of buddhas teaching for millions of eons to billions of people that gives them millions of offerings in pure lands (planets) made of jewels (why so many details?), flowers falling down like rain for eons, etc. etc. I wonder if that's destined to be some sort of guided meditation where you concentrate in all those details to reach some altered state of consciousness. Or to filter out people who's not really determinate to read the book.

There's even a mention of a pure land in chapter 8 where there are no women nor sexual desire (!). If the intention is getting rid of all desires and live in a place where you can just meditate, then why making a pure land full of flowers and jewels? Better make a desert of black sand! LOL!

If you want to read Nichiren's writings, you can get it on Amazon "the writings of nichiren diashonin" (gosho) or here: http://www.nichirenlibrary.org. The gosho is a good commentary tonread with the Lotus. He is an extremist, as mentioned. He puts down a lot of Buddhist schools. He felt that he Lotus is the only way to get Japan out of the war they were in. He said a lot of the war was because of the confrontation of buddhist schools.

 

[agorman]

He was deeply critical of Pure Land and veneration of Amida Buddha.

As far as I've read; Nichiren considered the Daimoku already included Amitabha worship. So Amitabha worship alone was incomplete. In fact, sometimes I wonder if worshipping the Gohonzon isn't really the same as asking for the help of all the deities inscribed on it. An acquaintance even told me that I should recite the Daimoku looking at the East and at the time when the Sun rises in Japan; which makes me wonder if there's some Sun worship involved (Amaterasu is in fact among the names written on the Gohonzon).

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Even though I'm Mahayana, I usually stick to the Pali suttas.

The Pali are a good foundation just in case you want to venture from the suttas to the sutras. I find the Pali easier to digest though.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

As far as I've read; Nichiren considered the Daimoku already included Amitabha worship. So Amitabha worship alone was incomplete. In fact, sometimes I wonder if worshipping the Gohonzon isn't really the same as asking for the help of all the deities inscribed on it. An acquaintance even told me that I should recite the Daimoku looking at the East and at the time when the Sun rises in Japan; which makes me wonder if there's some Sun worship involved (Amaterasu is in fact among the names written on the Gohonzon).

Well, on the Gohonzon, there is the Japanese sun and moon goddesses. The Gohonzon lists deities, kings that gaurd the four quarters of Mount Samueru, and major Boddhisattvas. Its a inscription of when The Buddha came back to preach the Law to everyone at one time.

Nichiren Shoshu worships the scroll itself. SGI sees more symbolism in it mirroring their true self. Nichiren Shu, I dont know. The Gosho says it is the Dharma. The Dharma/Gohonzon is in each person (Buddhanature). To look outside oneself is missing the point of Daimoku.

Nichiren Shoshu chants part of the sutra to the East and another part facing West. They shift positions during Gongyo.

But Amida Buddha isnt part of Nichiren practice. He says why worship the Buddha when we should be worshiping the Dharma.

It also depends on which sect your acquientence practices. Each sect has extreme doctrinal differences.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I'm reading the Lotus Sutra and it's really annoying; the more I read it and the more I hate it. It mentions millions of buddhas teaching for millions of eons to billions of people that gives them millions of offerings in pure lands (planets) made of jewels (why so many details?), flowers falling down like rain for eons, etc. etc. I wonder if that's destined to be some sort of guided meditation where you concentrate in all those details to reach some altered state of consciousness. Or to filter out people who's not really determinate to read the book.

There's even a mention of a pure land in chapter 8 where there are no women nor sexual desire (!). If the intention is getting rid of all desires and live in a place where you can just meditate, then why making a pure land full of flowers and jewels? Better make a desert of black sand! LOL!

Exaggerations tend to be useful expressions as long as you don't take it literally.

Fisherman catch fish, but this big? Really?
*grin*

 

[Osal]

Exaggerations tend to be useful expressions as long as you don't take it literally.

Fisherman catch fish, but this big? Really?
*grin*

It just occured to me. They're exagerations only if they exagerate. Buddhist stutras often offer some big numbers and itcan be a little hard to get around. However this represents a Buddhist world view. It teaches that in all directions across all times there are literallymilions of Buddhas. Not only that, but each of those Buddhas has an etourage of millions of Boddhisattvas.

That would be exagrating if the teaching said there were only a couple hundred Buddhas

You may not agree with it, but that doesn't mean its exagerating.