Why So Much Trinity Bashing?

[SLPCCC]

Yes. Jewish names for human beings often declare or reflecting a particular attribute of God, e.g., Eliakim. No polytheism.

Are you saying "yes" that there are two Mighty Gods and two Everlasting Fathers? So, you believe in polytheism? We Christians believe that the Mighty God in Isa 9:6 is the same Mighty God in Isa 10:21. There is only One God.

Notice how both Jesus and the Father are called the First and the Last and the Alpha and the Omega:

• Isaiah 44:6 “I am the first, and I am the last, and beside me, there is no God”
• 
  
• Rev 1:8 I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.
• 
  
• Rev 22: 12, 13, 20 "Look! I'm coming soon. . . I am the alpha and the omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. . . The one who bears witness to these things says, "Yes, I'm coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus! Also see Rev 1:8; 21:6

Also, these scriptures are not talking about Jewish names.

 

[SLPCCC]

Hi SLPCC,

Yes I do see that the Messiah was God. Because the fullness of the Godhead was dwelling in that body. He was the image (or the body) of the invisible God. Colossians 1:15


God is a Spirit. John 4:24
There is only one Spirit of God. Ephesians 4:4
There is only ONE God - the Father 1 Corinthians 8:6
The Holy Spirit is that same Father. (Not another person) Matthew 1:18, 20
The Father was dwelling in the Son. (Because the Son was the body.) John 14:10

Just like it says in Isaiah 9:6 The son would be called the mighty God, the everlasting Father. The Messiah was both the Father and the Son. The Father was the Spirit dwelling in the body, and the Son was the body. Father and Son is a distinction between flesh and spirit, not two different persons.

That was why he said - if you have SEEN me, you have SEEN the Father. John 14:7-9
That was why he said - I and my Father are one. John 10:30
That was why he said - Now have they hated both me and my Father. John 15:24
That is why it says - No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. Matthew 11:27

So you have a Modalist View? I don't accept this view for the following reasons:

• Jesus speaks of fulfilling the Father’s will and following his commands.
• In the beginning, Jesus (the Word) was there with God (the Father).
• Jesus looked up and prayed to the Father.

 

[SLPCCC]

That may be why the trinity doctrine was constructed. The Bible does not always use the word 'god' referring to the Almighty God, as you probably know.
When tempted by the devil, Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.’ ”
This is from the New King James Version, and I notice that they put the word Lord there is all capital letters. Do you know why that is?

I believe it has to do with the name Yahweh.

 

[Trailblazer]

Isa 9:6 it reads:

• For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government will be upon His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

We know this is talking about Jesus, but some who are being misled and don't believe the Trinity will ignore the fact that it says, "Everlasting Father"! There is only One Everlasting Father!

That verse is not about Jesus. Jesus was the Son of God, not the Father, and Jesus was definitely not the Prince of Peace, nor will He ever be.

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

These Isaiah 9:6-7 verses cannot refer to Jesus because Jesus disclaimed being the Mighty God when He called Himself “the Son of God” (John 5:18-47) and in those verses Jesus repudiates the charge that He claimed equality with God. Jesus disclaimed being the everlasting Father when He said, “my Father is greater than I” (John 14:28) and Jesus disclaimed being the Prince of Peace when He said, “I came not to send peace, but a sword” (Matthew 10:34). Jesus disclaimed bearing the government upon His shoulder when He said to “rend onto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's” (Mark 12:17, Matthew 22:21). Jesus disclaimed that He would establish a kingdom where he would rule with judgment and justice forever when He said, “My kingdom is not of this world” (John 18:36).

 

[Dimi95]

I think you need to review what that doctrine teaches.

What is divine simplicity?

You mean you can't see the difference in one person and three persons?

Shifting the Burden of Proof , nothing new..

One and three by what standard , human?

"echad" means one.

Or unity

 

[Dimi95]

The Trinity says God consists of THREE distinct persons.

Everyone knows that , what else?

Do you not belive that three can be one?

For example ,let's look at the three seperate structures of nitrate
One molecule of nitrate is all three resident structure all the time , and never just one of them, the three are separate , but all the same, and they are one , they are three in one.

Any question?

 

[Kenny]

Hi, Kenny. When a person dies, he's not alive. People usually mourn the fact that the person they loved has died.

What we believe is that his body isn’t alive… but he is alive in the presence of God. (There are many scriptures for this position)

 

[Dimi95]

Except that the early Christians didn't use the Trinitarian baptismal formula and the description of oneness doesn't conform.

Matthew 28:19-2
"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you".

It is nothing new to us that modalists and unitarians will question the validity of this and othee verses because of its trinitarian flavor.

But we also know that many don't use the same standard when History is considered.

One of The Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians:
"I know that ye possess an unblameable and sincere mind in patience, and that not only in present practice, but according to inherent nature, as Polybius your bishop has shown me, who has come to Smyrna by the will of God and Jesus Christ, and so sympathized in the joy which I, who am bound in Christ Jesus, possess, that I beheld your whole multitude in him. Having therefore received through him the testimony of your good-will, according to God, I gloried to find you, as I knew you were, the followers of God.
I know that ye possess an unblameable and sincere mind in patience, and that not only for present use, but as a permanent possession, as Polybius your bishop has shown me, who has come to Smyrna by the will of God the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ, His Son, with the co-operation of the Spirit, and so sympathized in the joy which I, who am bound in Christ Jesus, possess, that I beheld your whole multitude in Him. Having therefore received through him the testimony of your good-will according to God, I gloried to find that you were the followers of Jesus Christ the Saviour."

It is like it is , you will always push , we will always answer.

We will find more fragments , be sure of that.

 

[Ebionite]

But we also know that many don't use the same standard when History is considered.

The church fathers were under the dominion of Constantine, and his cult of Sol Invictus worshipped a triad of deities.

 

[Dimi95]

In Isa 10:21 it calls Our Father Mighty God just like in Isa 9:6 which calls Jesus Mighty God.

• A remnant will return, a remnant of Jacob will return to the Mighty God. Isa 10:21 NIV

Mighty God in Hebrew is "El Gibbor". It is used in both cases: at 9:6 and 10:21. Note, not a Mighty God but Mighty God

The basic problem is understanding divine simplicity.

One and Oneness is not the same..

 

[Dimi95]

The church fathers were under the dominion of Constantine, and his cult of Sol Invictus worshipped a triad of deities.

View attachment 89003

"The Battle of Milvian Bridge in 312 led directly to Constantine's conversion. Prior to the battle, he prayed to the Christian God and saw a Chi Rho, and the words "in hoc signo vinces," or "by this sign, conquer." He credited his victory to the Christian God."

Constantine's Conversion to Christianity | Overview & Impact - Lesson | Study.com

Learn about the conversion of Constantine to Christianity, his issuance of the Edict of Milan, and his hosting of the Council of Nicea to...

study.com

 

[Rival]

The church fathers were under the dominion of Constantine, and his cult of Sol Invictus worshipped a triad of deities.

View attachment 89003

Errr, who is teaching you this crap.

Half of them lived before Constantine was around.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Basically sola scriptura has come home to roost. When Protestantism decided that all you needed for doctrine was the Bible, without the necessity of Church interpretation, the first thing that happened was that the movement split into a zillion pieces.

That actually is oversimplified. Protestants needed a means to get out from under their corrupt government which was indistinguishable from church authority, and some of them decided to weaponize your scripture in order to do so. Government officials were called ministers, and to rebel against them was to rebel against God. Therefore to change things Protestants needed God on their side, too. What better way than to find in scripture that God wanted the corrupt ministers gone.

Not all protestants did that. Some did not weaponize scripture and some did not even use scripture, but the ones that seized control of government did so.

Many Christians today really don't care about the early church councils that hammered things out.

It is optimistic to claim that the early church councils hammer things out, but it is true that protestants are woefully uninformed about all that has gone before.

Every Christian is his own pope, and feels perfectly free to read the Bible and interpret it however they feel. Thus, we are seeing in our time the resurgence of a great many ideas that the early generations of Christians had basically declared heresies and had eliminated from the churches. I even know Christians today who do not believe that Jesus is God -- totally unthinkable in days gone by. And of course all the different groups ALL claim to be "just following the Bible." It's not that I agree with Christian orthodoxy -- I have MANY problems with its doctrines. But then again, I'm not Christian. It's just that when there is this little unity, I kind of feel like Protestantism has lost its credibility.

God's reputation is what suffers.

 

[vulcanlogician]

I've never been a trinity-basher. I think it is an interesting way to conceive of God. And not without its merits. Supposedly, God is an immense being (incomprehensible to us mortals). Why shouldn't we try to divide him up into three understandable concepts? During winter, when we stare out into the icy fields, that is the beauty of God the Father. Who loves us, but is also indifferent in some regards. Then there is the Son, whose love is NOT indifferent at all. IDK about the Holy Spirit. I guess that's just a catch-all for the rest of the weirdness. But maybe the Holy Spirit are those inner movements toward God that innately exist in us, and sometimes direct us toward the Father or the Son. I don't buy into it. But I'd hardly call it nonsense.

But I also have my doubts about the forthright claim that "God has three parts. And I can name and identify those parts." Such folks have much explaining to do imo. And, trust me, I've asked and listened... but none have provided a definition or explanation that wasn't in some way fishy and contrived.

 

[Dimi95]

Everyone knows that , what else?

Do you not belive that three can be one?

For example ,let's look at the three seperate structures of nitrate
One molecule of nitrate is all three resident structure all the time , and never just one of them, the three are separate , but all the same, and they are one , they are three in one.

Any question?

Just to point out this was an example.

I belive that the Three Persons are distinct , but not separate.

 

[SLPCCC]

That verse is not about Jesus. Jesus was the Son of God, not the Father, and Jesus was definitely not the Prince of Peace, nor will He ever be. ([/I]John 18:36).

Who do you think this "child who is born, who will be called The mighty God, The everlasting Father" is? Do you think this "mighty God, everlasting Father" is yet to be born? Do you think God the Father will be born?

These Isaiah 9:6-7 verses cannot refer to Jesus because Jesus disclaimed being the Mighty God when He called Himself “the Son of God” (John 5:18-47) John 18:36).

Jesus came as the Son of God. Lived among us as the Son. When He died, He was glorified and will come again to judge the living and the dead as King. In His second coming, He will be to us, a Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Prince of Peace because He will put an end to this world and bring in a New World.

Jesus disclaimed being the everlasting Father when He said, “my Father is greater than I” (John 14:28) and Jesus disclaimed being the Prince of Peace when He said, “I came not to send peace, but a sword” (Matthew 10:34). Jesus disclaimed bearing the government upon His shoulder when He said to “rend onto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's” (Mark 12:17, Matthew 22:21). Jesus disclaimed that He would establish a kingdom where he would rule with judgment and justice forever when He said, “My kingdom is not of this world” (John 18:36).

The Father is greater than Jesus because the Father is His Father, and Jesus is the Son. A Husband may be greater than his wife in the sense of being the head of the household, but this doesn't mean he is a greater person than his wife. They are both equal, having different roles. Similarly, a General may have a higher role than his lower-ranking soldier, but this doesn't mean the General is a higher person. They are both equal but have different roles. Jesus always respected his father's role, who sent him as the Father and Jesus as the Son, even to the point of not knowing when the last day would be as the Son and as a man.

 

[SLPCCC]

God is an immense being (incomprehensible to us mortals).

That's what is expected from an all-powerful Being. No one can explain how the Trinity works. It's a mystery. But if God is all-powerful and nothing is impossible for him, then being three persons in One shouldn't surprise us if it's true. He can be whatever He is and we with our limited comprehension should just accept that somethings we just can't fully grasp.

 

[Ebionite]

"The Battle of Milvian Bridge in 312 led directly to Constantine's conversion. Prior to the battle, he prayed to the Christian God and saw a Chi Rho, and the words "in hoc signo vinces," or "by this sign, conquer." He credited his victory to the Christian God."

This didn't stop the early church from incorporating aspects of his earlier religion into Christianity.

Christ as Sol Invictus - St Peter's Basilica

 

[Ebionite]

Errr, who is teaching you this crap.

It's not crap, the church today is derived from Constantine's church, just like the books of the Bible were selected by men under Constantine's dominion.

 

[Trailblazer]

Who do you think this "child who is born, who will be called The mighty God, The everlasting Father" is?

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

I believe that Baha’u’llah was the Prince of Peace and the Lord of hosts. World peace will be established during His religious dispensation. Please note that the prophecy does not say 'when' peace will be established, but where it says there shall be no end to the peace that indicates that it won't happen all at once but rather it will unfold gradually. That is exactly what is happening right now. The same is true for the government. It says that there shall be 'no end' to the government which means it will begin and be established gradually and continue to develop over time. The government will be more developed in the future as the prophecy says (increase in government).

Baha’u’llah set up a 'system of government' and it has already been established among the Baha’is. The institutions of that government are fully operational, but still in their infancy. What we now refer to as Local Spiritual assemblies (LSAs) and will eventually evolve into what will be called Houses of Justice.

Do you think this "mighty God, everlasting Father" is yet to be born? Do you think God the Father will be born?

No, I believe the "mighty God, everlasting Father" was Baha'u'llah, who was born in 1817 AD.

Baháʼu'lláh (born Ḥusayn-ʻAlí; 12 November 1817 – 29 May 1892) was the founder of the Baháʼí Faith. He was born to an aristocratic family in Persia and was exiled due to his adherence to the messianic Bábí Faith. In 1863, in Iraq, he first announced his claim to a revelation from God and spent the rest of his life in further imprisonment in the Ottoman Empire. His teachings revolved around the principles of unity and religious renewal, ranging from moral and spiritual progress to world governance.[1]

Baháʼu'lláh - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Baha'u'llah never claimed to BE God, He disclaimed that. Baha'u'llah claimed to be the Father because He came in the 'station' of the Father, just as Jesus claimed to be the Son, because He came in the 'station' of the Son.

“The Word which the Son concealed is made manifest. It hath been sent down in the form of the human temple in this day. Blessed be the Lord Who is the Father! He, verily, is come unto the nations in His most great majesty.” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 84-85

“This is the Father foretold by Isaiah, and the Comforter concerning Whom the Spirit had covenanted with you. Open your eyes, O concourse of bishops, that ye may behold your Lord seated upon the Throne of might and glory.” The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 63

Jesus came as the Son of God. Lived among us as the Son. When He died, He was glorified and will come again to judge the living and the dead as King. In His second coming, He will be to us, a Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Prince of Peace because He will put an end to this world and bring in a New World.

The error I believe that Christians have made, and it is a huge error, is believing that the same man Jesus was the one slated by God to return to earth and rule.

Isaiah 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name.

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 3:12-13 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

The new name means that the return of Christ would be another man with a new name, not Jesus.
He would have the same Holy Spirit as Jesus but He would have a different body.


Jesus never promised to return to earth, not once in the New Testament. Jesus said His work was finished here and He was no more in the world. That means that the return of Christ has to be another Person.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Jesus never claimed to be a king, and He never said He was coming back to earth to rule.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

These two verses in John 18 completely negate that Jesus is the King of this world or that Jesus will ever come to this world to rule it, and they fit perfectly together with John 17:4 and John 17:11. Jesus came into this world to bear witness unto the truth about God. He did that so there is no more reason for Jesus to come back to this world again. That is why Jesus said “I am no more in the world.”

Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?

The Father is greater than Jesus because the Father is His Father, and Jesus is the Son. A Husband may be greater than his wife in the sense of being the head of the household, but this doesn't mean he is a greater person than his wife. They are both equal, having different roles. Similarly, a General may have a higher role than his lower-ranking soldier, but this doesn't mean the General is a higher person. They are both equal but have different roles. Jesus always respected his father's role, who sent him as the Father and Jesus as the Son, even to the point of not knowing when the last day would be as the Son and as a man.

I agree with all of that.