Why so much attention on male-to-female trans people?

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

Sure, there are plenty of drugs that can modify ones behaviour. Just look at all the zombie kids that are kept doped up and docile because they decided being rambunctious was a mental disorder. Look it works, they aren't hyper anymore.

Pharma makes the pills, APA sells them by declaring whatever effect they happen to have is making you more sane.

New 'disorder' created. Every DSM version is massively larger than previous versions.

Don't take my word for it. Go try to find any real science in psychology/psychiatry. You might be surprised.

I too, once assumed it must be real science, until I actually studied it.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Due to her upbringing she may have certain aspects of male gender roles internalized, but that depends on her personality.
Her gender however doesn't depend on the anatomy of the body she has.

Let me ask all, and I'm being blunt no disrespect.

I'm a woman because all I consider all of me a part of who I am-my genitals, the way I speak, and who I'm attracted to, the whole me makes me, me. Whether that means "woman" I don't know. I've never used Queer in my dictionary, but it's slowly becoming more useful.

If a transgender person is a female in a male body, what does that exactly mean? Your gender-both sex and psyche-are a part of you. So, if a transgender is a female (though biologically male), she is still male regardless of how she identifies herself because the whole part of being a male or woman is not just whats inside but what is outside too.

If that is wrong, there would be no need for treatments, changing one's sexual parts, or anything because if gender is just the psyche and have nothing to do with the sex, then transgender would identify as female (if biologically male) without the need to chance their body.

They do feel the need.

So, it goes together. What does it mean to be female but biologically a male?

If there were four different Islands and each had completely different customs of what males and females should do, act, and look like, how would one know they are in the wrong body if their culture is accepting to who a person is rather than in our society today who is focused on what a person is?

I mean, society has so much homophobia that when I was younger, I thought I was a guy in a girls body because I couldn't figure out why I liked women when only males are "supposed" to like women (among other queer related reasons). If society loved me for who I am rather than define me by who I am attracted to, would my sexual orientation be an issue in living who I am as a lesbian (aka would gender orientation would be an issue if transgenders were accepted for who they are as male or female regardless of what they are biologically?)

If a transgender person was in a 100 percent accepting environment before they decide to become male or female, how would they define being "male" or being "female" a part from themselves if society didn't designate the definitions for them?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Yes, yes I do. PTSD is a 'disorder' because it made the 'big book of disorders' aka the DSM

How do you think the DSM is written? Maybe scientific research, hypothesis, testing, conclusion, reproducible results?

Or are 'disorders' simply selected and agreed upon by the board at the APA based on their opinions, which are not backed up by any actual science?

One would assume the first, but one would be wrong.

Mmkay, even though it's considered a disorder by those unaffiliated with the APA such as WHO and the ICD, international psychiatric associations, and even those critical of DSM and other diagnostic guidelines like NIH. Don't forget to pick up your tin foil. You can't be without it.

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

Mmkay, even though it's considered a disorder by those unaffiliated with the APA such as WHO and the ICD, international psychiatric associations, and even those critical of DSM and other diagnostic guidelines like NIH. Don't forget to pick up your tin foil. You can't be without it.

Show me the science then. I realize that you, like many, like I used to, buy into the rhetoric. That's swell.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I thought I was a guy in a girls body because I couldn't figure out why I liked women when only males are "supposed" to like women (among other queer related reasons).

But did you feel distress over having a female body and not a male one or over being viewed as female?

If a transgender person was in a 100 percent accepting environment before they decide to become male or female, how would they define being "male" or being "female" a part from themselves if society didn't designate the definitions for them?

Self-perception and dysphoria. It's not a social construct, if that's what you're trying to say.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Show me the science then. I realize that you, like many, like I used to, buy into the rhetoric. That's swell.

Sure, after you show me evidence of conspiracy and collusion between all psychological and psychiatric facilities and "Big Pharma.' We're each about as likely to convince the other it's true.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

What does it mean, though, to be female in a male body? Everyone has different gender orientations, sexual orientations (which isn't always isolated as people think they are), and so forth. We differ in many different ways. If there were no such thing as male or female (of no one made differentiation between what is male and what is female), how would you describe yourself as a male without referring to sex and social customs?

When my cousin says she is a woman, I see her as a woman. Although I have more queer-oriented feelings in regards to gender, but if someone is a woman, that is who they are. The word transgender doesn't really make too much sense to me when I know who she is as a person rather than what society and her biological make up say she should be.

I know it's a personal choice. If I were transgender to male, I'd say I am male point blank. Not transgender. I would have always been male, am, and always will be (in this analogy). If society didn't have an issue with gender and sex, how would a transgender describe being male or female in another body that someone like myself and many others wouldn't think about?

But did you feel distress over having a female body and not a male one or over being viewed as female?

I am not transgender. I'll say that upfront. Male and females aren't black and white. Men look like women and women look like men in different parts of the world. I don't understand the mind to separate them as male or female. If everyone was created the same way, look the same, same organs, and still were male and female, what identifies one person as a male and the other as female?

And this will need to be universal not based on what our society says since other places do not see people as "LGBTQIA..." they see people as people not letters of the alphabet.

I am who I am (woman or man, whatever) because of my external and internal features not because I am a woman in a woman's body. I honestly don't know what that means.

So, my overall question is what does it mean to be a female in a male's body?

Define what a male and female is psychologically that has nothing to do with organs, genitalia, culture, social constructs, and labels.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Define what a male and female is psychologically that has nothing to do with organs, genitalia, culture, social constructs, and labels.

You're basically making it a question I can't answer, since we're an inherently sexed species.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@Saint Frankenstein

Another reason people probably are more focused on the male to female is because they don't understand it. Maybe for some people ignorance is a bliss, but in other cases, if there is no understanding, how do you expect people to consider overcoming their bias?

I mean, here we have different support groups, events, and things of that nature for all of us LGBTQIA-and so forth. People volunteer, help educate, and so on. It's beautiful. I'll be taking my friend there since she is just coming to terms with her sexuality. But we can't do that without education.

It's also easier on the eyes to see a female to male (from am American view. I don't know about men/women looks in other countries) than male to female because of what we have been taught to see that a male should be like X and a woman should be like Y. Outside of that, I don't know. Some of us are fickled.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You're basically making it a question I can't answer, since we're an inherently sexed species.

Can you see why I'm confused and asked the question? If we were inheritedly the labels we place ourselves, then we can find answers. Since we are not, many people don't question it unless they find themselves to where they are in a body that isn't there own etc. I can't identify with that feeling of disconnection. I just know that who people are is also their physical make up. Since many transgender go through the process of conversion, there has got to be a reason for this physical conversion even if gender is said to be the psyche and not the organs.

It's one thing to change your body. Say a person feels they are missing something between their legs. Like something is "supposed" to be there. I remember having hat feeling years ago. That's fine. It's the actual changing to be of another gender and wearing opposite gender clothing, etc that makes me think it's more than just the body and feelings but also a social influenced thing as well. Why would a transgender female want to wear a dress if she already has surgery and has always been a woman her whole life. I wear jeans all the time, so obviously, there is some connection with societal norms not just the psyche of gender and sex.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Can you see why I'm confused and asked the question? If we were inheritedly the labels we place ourselves, then we can find answers. Since we are not, many people don't question it unless they find themselves to where they are in a body that isn't there own etc. I can't identify with that feeling of disconnection. I just know that who people are is also their physical make up. Since many transgender go through the process of conversion, there has got to be a reason for this physical conversion even if gender is said to be the psyche and not the organs.

It's one thing to change your body. Say a person feels they are missing something between their legs. Like something is "supposed" to be there. I remember having hat feeling years ago. That's fine. It's the actual changing to be of another gender and wearing opposite gender clothing, etc that makes me think it's more than just the body and feelings but also a social influenced thing as well. Why would a transgender female want to wear a dress if she already has surgery and has always been a woman her whole life. I wear jeans all the time, so obviously, there is some connection with societal norms not just the psyche of gender and sex.

You're mixing up some key concepts here.

There's gender identity, sex dysphoria (what's usually called "gender dysphoria" but I feel that's a misnomer since the dysphoria is primarily over the sex assigned at birth and the physical body) and gender expression.

The cultural component comes in with gender expression. Our cultures have different views of femininity and masculinity. Part of this is expressed through clothing. Some trans people, like myself, are more comfortable expressing our gender through clothing that is viewed as more socially acceptable for our gender. So I prefer to wear men's clothing, like a trans woman might prefer wearing women's clothing (dresses, skirts, women's jeans, etc.). Others don't really care about the clothing aspect. That's just what we're more comfortable in and how we choose to express ourselves.

As for why trans people medically transition through hormones and/or surgeries, that's to align the body with the perception of self. Some of us have more dysphoria towards our genitals, or towards our chest area (having breasts or the lack of them), our faces (so some trans women get facial feminization surgery, for example). For example, I used to have much more dysphoria about my genitals before starting testosterone therapy, but since I started taking testosterone, it's subsided somewhat. Now my dysphoria is mostly centered around my chest and I plan to have chest surgery eventually. For other trans people, the genital dysphoria doesn't subside. And so on.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

There's gender identity, sex dysphoria (what's usually called "gender dysphoria" but I feel that's a misnomer since the dysphoria is primarily over the sex assigned at birth and the physical body) and gender expression.

I read your post a couple of times. If there were no sex assigned to us at birth (no one designate us male or female based on organs or parts) and we were born and grow up without labels, would it be safe to say that sex disopheria is feeling you have features that you feel aren't "a part of you" or foreign to you? I know that's broad but I'm trying to take out the social influence and labels involved when it comes to sex since there are people who have no gender.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

If there were no sex assigned to us at birth (no one designate us male or female based on organs or parts) and we were born and grow up without labels, would it be safe to say that sex disopheria is feeling you have features that you feel aren't "a part of you" or foreign to you?

Pretty much. Basically, the best theory we have is that, for some reason, the brains of transsexuals are "bathed" in the womb in the hormones of the sex "opposite" their chromosomal sex. So, for example, you have a baby that's XX, chromosomally, but the baby's brain is hit with a male level of androgens (male hormones) in the womb, causing the brain to form as a male brain. The brain expects the body to be a certain way, but it isn't. It doesn't fit the "brain map". That makes the baby a transsexual male. This would be the cause of sex dysphoria in transsexuals. Hormones and/or surgeries are ways to align the body with the brain's expectations, so relieving the dysphoria. I know that taking male hormones relieves most of my dysphoria. I'm running on the correct "fuel".

So it's a lot similar to phantom limb syndrome, where a person loses a limb but the neural connections are still there, so they can still "feel" the limb as if it's still there. A similar phenomenon has been recorded among transsexual men, called "phantom penis syndrome".

As for non-binary people, I can't speak for them and their experiences, since I'm a transsexual and mostly focus on research into transsexualism.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Pretty much. Basically, the best theory we have is that, for some reason, the brains of transsexuals are "bathed" in the womb in the hormones of the sex "opposite" their chromosomal sex. So, for example, you have a baby that's XX, chromosomally, but the baby's brain is hit with a male level of androgens (male hormones) in the womb, causing the brain to form as a male brain. The brain expects the body to be a certain way, but it isn't. It doesn't fit the "brain map". That makes the baby a transsexual male. This would be the cause of sex dysphoria in transsexuals. Hormones and/or surgeries are ways to align the body with the brain's expectations, so relieving the dysphoria. I know that taking male hormones relieves most of my dysphoria. I'm running on the correct "fuel".

As for non-binary people, I can't speak for them and their experiences, since I'm a transsexual and mostly focus on research into transsexualism.

That makes more sense. Thank you.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

That makes more sense. Thank you.

You're welcome.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Psychology isnt science dude. Not even a little bit.

It is a science, though, with many gains in knowledge about how we function arising from this science. Gone are the days of Freud's doped up "studies."

APA sells them by declaring whatever effect they happen to have is making you more sane.

The APA sells no pills, nor do they assume the roles and responsibilities of the FDA. Most of the time psychologists can't even write prescriptions.

I too, once assumed it must be real science, until I actually studied it.

You aren't convincing me you've studied it.

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

It is a science, though, with many gains in knowledge about how we function arising from this science. Gone are the days of Freud's doped up "studies."

The APA sells no pills, nor do they assume the roles and responsibilities of the FDA. Most of the time psychologists can't even write prescriptions.

You aren't convincing me you've studied it.

Show me the due scientific process then.

And my claim isn't that the APA writes prescriptions, it's that they are in the pocket of big pharma. It's the perfect arrangement as a psychological condition is whatever the bearded suits on the board say it is.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Show me the due scientific process then.

Do you want a psych 101 text book, or any study? Or how about the fact we know gradually and incrementally exposing someone to a fearful stimuli in a controlled environment is a fantastic way of curing phobias, and we also know the "gay conversion" therapy does more harm than good because of the scientific process.

And my claim isn't that the APA writes prescriptions, it's that they are in the pocket of big pharma.

When it comes to clinical and counseling psychology (my area), insurance companies are a far greater issue and problem than big pharma. And that is pretty much because insurance companies would rather just pay for pills than talk (especially before the ACA mandated mental health care), and to cover anything they want a diagnosis.
And, in reality, most psychologists and psychiatrists do not dogmatically cling to the APA or the DSM. Much like medicine, there is more than one organization, and they don't all necessarily agree all of the time. And of course it's silly to think of the APA as some central organization for the entirety of psychology anyways, because it's an American based group - you won't find them holding much sway in Europe like you do here.

It's the perfect arrangement as a psychological condition is whatever the bearded suits on the board say it is.

Except that is not what a psychological condition is. Yes, things in psychology have and do things, but that is the nature of science and indeed even medicine and the natural sciences are prone to changing and often do. And moreover there is a "checklist" for determining what is and is not a psychological condition, and it tends to revolve around impairing someone's ability to take care of themselves, function in society, and asking if it's causing them distress.
And, FYI, women actually outnumber men in the field of psychology.

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

Do you want a psych 101 text book, or any study? Or how about the fact we know gradually and incrementally exposing someone to a fearful stimuli in a controlled environment is a fantastic way of curing phobias, and we also know the "gay conversion" therapy does more harm than good because of the scientific process.

When it comes to clinical and counseling psychology (my area), insurance companies are a far greater issue and problem than big pharma. And that is pretty much because insurance companies would rather just pay for pills than talk (especially before the ACA mandated mental health care), and to cover anything they want a diagnosis.
And, in reality, most psychologists and psychiatrists do not dogmatically cling to the APA or the DSM. Much like medicine, there is more than one organization, and they don't all necessarily agree all of the time. And of course it's silly to think of the APA as some central organization for the entirety of psychology anyways, because it's an American based group - you won't find them holding much sway in Europe like you do here.

Except that is not what a psychological condition is. Yes, things in psychology have and do things, but that is the nature of science and indeed even medicine and the natural sciences are prone to changing and often do. And moreover there is a "checklist" for determining what is and is not a psychological condition, and it tends to revolve around impairing someone's ability to take care of themselves, function in society, and asking if it's causing them distress.
And, FYI, women actually outnumber men in the field of psychology.

Right, so you want it to be scientific, but you can't actually show any evidence yourself. Understood.

 

[Liu]

It's also easier on the eyes to see a female to male (from am American view. I don't know about men/women looks in other countries) than male to female because of what we have been taught to see that a male should be like X and a woman should be like Y. Outside of that, I don't know. Some of us are fickled.

I'm not an American, but from comparable culture (western Europe).
One of the things my father said when I told him I'm trans is that he can't really comprehend why one would rather like to be male instead of female, he (and he's not trans at all) would have an easier time to comprehend it the other way round. But I can't tell whether that can be generalized.
If it is generally that way then this would be a further reason why trans-women get more attention - people expect to see them.

[QUOTE="Carlita, post: 5113646, member: 55631"]If we were inheritedly the labels we place ourselves, then we can find answers. Since we are not, many people don't question it unless they find themselves to where they are in a body that isn't there own etc. I can't identify with that feeling of disconnection. I just know that who people are is also their physical make up. Since many transgender go through the process of conversion, there has got to be a reason for this [I]physical [/I]conversion even if gender is said to be the psyche and not the organs.

It's one thing to change your body. Say a person feels they are missing something between their legs. Like something is "supposed" to be there. I remember having hat feeling years ago. That's fine. It's the actual changing to be of another gender [I]and [/I]wearing opposite gender clothing, etc that makes me think it's more than just the body and feelings but also a social influenced thing as well. Why would a transgender female want to wear a dress if she already has surgery and has always been a woman her whole life. I wear jeans all the time, so obviously, there is some connection with societal norms not just the psyche of gender and sex.[/QUOTE]
I oversimplified gender a bit too much in my former comment it seems.
Transgender people often have an issue with both the gender roles and the anatomy of their body, but it's the latter what makes one transgender. You absolutely can be a transwoman and still use no make-up, wear no dresses, and fulfill any cliche that is normally reserved to males.

Having a problem with gender roles is probably rather a side-effect of the bodily disphoria, as the clothing, the social expectations etc. all remind you of the fact that they are normally attributed to that part of society that you don't identify with. Some clothes may also put attention to parts of your body that you feel uncomfortable with. Also, being trans puts a lot of psychological pressure on you, so many trans-people just want to fit in with the gender they identify as and kinda automatically also take on the gender roles associated with it.

And while many people say that gender roles would be completely arbitrary, the fact that even a lot of trans-people adhere to many of the gender roles of the gender they identify with might show that gender roles have a basis in the different psyches typical of males and females. However, as I mentioned before, there are also a lot of cis-people who don't identify with their gender roles but with their gender. Therefore I would assume that gender roles are based on what is most typical for the psyches of males and females, but the psyches of cis-males differ from each other a lot, and the psyches of cis-females as well, so that even many cis-people could be confused of being trans since the social roles their are comfortable with are more typical for people of the other sex.

I conclude that the reason why transgenders need treatment is not the social roles (even though those may put even more stress on them), but the fact that their subconscious has a certain expectation how their body should look like which isn't met due to their subconscious and their body being of opposite gender/sex, leading to disphoria.

Also, I guess the words sex and gender are not really enough as there are too many sub-aspects (for sex: genetics, anatomy, genitals, hormonal balance, ..., for gender: bodily expectations of the subconscious, archetypes the subconscious identifies with, social roles one feels comfortable with, ...). On the other hand, these different aspects seem to be not completely independent from each other and it's often not easy to determine all of them for a given person, so using sub-categories might lead to more confusion instead of dissolving it.

EDIT: Didn't notice before some of the posts on the last page, sorry if I said something already mentioned there, but I guess some repetition on this topic won't hurt.