Why so many different accounts of the First Vision?

[Bishka]

And how do you know which is true (outside of the fuzzy feelings both sides get)?

Those feelings of contenment like I've already stated.
Nutshell, if you want me to convince you, like I've already said, I won't.

 

[Bishka]

To them it is right, but what about to God?

Well, as I believe God will accept everyone (well, ALMOST everyone), and God would never say, "Just because you believe in this YOU are going to hell." I think God cares deeply about His children and wants to see them happy.

I believe (my own personal belief) that if they are happy in their current belief, then God is happy for them.

 

[nutshell]

Well, as I believe God will accept everyone (well, ALMOST everyone), and God would never say, "Just because you believe in this YOU are going to hell." I think God cares deeply about His children and wants to see them happy.

I believe (my own personal belief) that if they are happy in their current belief, then God is happy for them.

But god will say, "Sorry...you had those fuzzy feelings your entire life, but here's a kingdom of glory where your progress will end...sorry."

 

[nutshell]

Those feelings of contenment like I've already stated.
Nutshell, if you want me to convince you, like I've already said, I won't.

I'm not asking to be convinced...I just want a reasoned explanation.

 

[Bishka]

But god will say, "Sorry...you had those fuzzy feelings your entire life, but here's a kingdom of glory where your progress will end...sorry."

Not quite what I believe, but I do differ from some Latter-day Saints.

 

[Bishka]

I'm not asking to be convinced...I just want a reasoned explanation.

And I've given you how I believe. My belief isn't exactly 'reasoned', but that doesn't matter to me, because it makes perfect sense to me.

If you want a reasoned explanation just look at what Bryce and Kathryn have given you, it seems as if you don't want to hear it anymore.

 

[SoyLeche]

OK. There are many logical fallacies in the explanations you've quoted, but I'll discuss those later. Everything seems to come down to the Holy Ghost.

Go ahead and point them out. We'll never get anywhere until you do

New Question: How do you know what you're feeling is the Holy Ghost and not a physical reaction caused by wanting to believe.

You know as well as anyone that that is an unanswerable question. I don't believe it is possible to form a logical argument proving that I have felt the Holy Ghost - and I certainly will never convince anyone else of it. That is really unimportant. I know what I have experienced, and that's enough for me. If it isn't enough for you, I'm sorry I can't provide anything else.

 

[Katzpur]

Also, if the first Vision was real...why did JS try to join a Methodist Church a few years later?

Over 50 years after the event supposedly took place, it was said that Joseph Smith sought to join the Methodist Episcopal Church in Harmony, Pennsylvania. However, Michael Morse (the instructor at that church at the time) denied that this ever happened. He stated unambiguously that Joseph "did not seek to become a...[member of the Methodist Church]." but attended a few meetings in an attempt to proselytize.

 

[Katzpur]

I'm just looking for an explanation of the inconsistancies and I've been met only with logical fallicies.

Look for reasons to doubt and you will find some, Nutshell. Where have you looked for explanations? Who have you asked?

Here are a couple of articles for you on the varying First Vision accounts:

http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/response/qa/firstvision_backman.htm

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Brochures/The_First_Vision.pdf

Regarding he Kinderhook Plates, why are there accounts that JS did translate a portion of them? Why is there yet another inconsistancy?

How much do you really know about the Kinderhook Plates, Nutshell? Had you ever even heard of them until just recently? Let me give you a little background on how this supposed "hoax" came to light. In 1879, a Mr. W. Fugate signed an affadavit stating that he, along with eight others had designed a hoax to expose Joseph Smith as a false prophet. Now stop to think about this: Joseph supposedly fell for this hoax in 1843. Why did Fugate wait 36 years to announce it? Why did he wait until all of the other eight men had died? If nine men had successfully proven in 1843 that Joseph Smith had fallen for a stupid hoax, do you really think they would have just let it go? Of course not. It would have been front page news back in 1843 when it happened. Here's an article on the subject that you might find interesting:

http://www.aros.net/~wenglund/kinderhook.htm

 

[jonny]

Making a chart on this thing isn't easy, but here's a list of the different accounts of the First Vision and what they included and didn't include:

Religious Excitement of the Period: 1838-1839, Neibaur
Joseph's Concern for his soul: 1931-32, Pratt, Hyde, Wentworth, Neibaur
Disillusionment with various demoninations: 1931-32, 1835, 1838-39, Pratt, Hyde, Wentworth, Spectator
Joseph's concern for mankind in general: 1831-32
His quest for forgiveness of sin: 1931-32
His quest to know which church was right: 1931-32, 1835, 1838-39, Pratt, Hyde, Wentworth, Spectator, Neibaur
His searching the scriptures: 1931-32, 1835, 1838-39, Pratt, Hyde, Wentworth, Spectator, Neibaur
His prayer: 1931-32, 1835, 1838-39, Pratt, Hyde, Wentworth, Spectator, Neibaur
The strange force of the opposition: 1835, 1838-39, Pratt, Hyde, Wentworth, Spectator, Neibaur
Appearance of the light: 1931-32, 1835, 1838-39, Pratt, Hyde, Neibaur
Appearance of diety: 1931-32, 1835, 1838-39, Pratt, Spectator, Neibaur
Two Personages: 1835, 1838-39, Pratt, Hyde, Wentworth, Spectator, Neibaur
The Message - Forgiveness of sins: 1931-32, 1835, Pratt, Hyde, Wentworth, Spectator, Neibaur
The Message - Testimony of Christ: 1931-32, 1835, 1838-39, Pratt
The Message - Join no church: 1931-32, 1838-39, Spectator
The Message - Gospel to be restored: Pratt, Hyde, Wentworth
Joseph Filled with love: 1931-32
Unsucessful efforts to get others to believe the story: 1931-32, 1838-39, Neibaur

 

[jonny]

Here is a summary of the different versions I mentioned above:

1830 - D&C 20:5
1831 - Abner Cole in the Palmyra Reflector
July to December 1832 - Written by Joseph Smith in a Letter Book (the first known effort of the prophet to record the story)
November 9, 1835 - Dictated by Joseph Smith to Warren A. Cowdery as the experience was told to Robert Matthias. Recorded in the "Manuscript History of Joseph Smith" and Joseph's 1835-36 journal.
1839 - Dictated by Joseph Smith to James Mulholland after release from Missouri prison. This is the official history and was published in the Pearl of Great Price & Times and Seasons. It was edited by B.H. Roberts.
Pratt - Written by Orson Pratt in 1840 for a missionary tract.
Wentworth - Written by Joseph Smith in the Wentworth letter
March 15, 1842 - Portions were later included in the Pearl of Great Price
Hyde - Orson Hyde used Pratt's missionary tract as the source for a tract that was used in Germany
Niebauer - Written in a diary by Joseph Smith's german teacher as he remember Joseph Smith telling him the story.
Rupp - 1844 version very similar to the Wentworth letter

I got the information from some notes I had. I don't know how complete they are. In the end, I'd say that there are different accounts because they were prepared by different people at different times for different purposes. The different accounts emphasize different portions of the vision.

There are four occasions that Joseph Smith himself wrote or dictated a detailed account. Keep in mind that Joseph Smith never wrote a complete description of everything that he experienced. Even in the most complete account, he mentioned that many other things were said that he could not write at that time.

 

[nutshell]

Thank you, everyone, for your posts. Honestly, I don't want to debate this. The bottom line, I think you'll agree with me, is it comes down to faith and I don't really have any right now.

Thanks.

 

[SoyLeche]

Thank you, everyone, for your posts. Honestly, I don't want to debate this. The bottom line, I think you'll agree with me, is it comes down to faith and I don't really have any right now.

Thanks.

If you don't want to discuss it, that's fine. I'd still like to know what is wrong with what was in my post though. I spent a lot of time this morning putting that together, and I'd like to know why you discount it so easily.

If you'd rather not get into it, though, I'll get over it

 

[Bishka]

Thank you, everyone, for your posts. Honestly, I don't want to debate this. The bottom line, I think you'll agree with me, is it comes down to faith and I don't really have any right now.

Thanks.

I know that feeling.

 

[Katzpur]

Thank you, everyone, for your posts. Honestly, I don't want to debate this. The bottom line, I think you'll agree with me, is it comes down to faith and I don't really have any right now.

Thanks.

Nutshell,

You know, all I'd like to say at this point is that if you want to find reasons to believe, there are plenty of them. If you want to find reasons not to believe, there are some of them, too. It's all up to you, really. The questions you raised are all old anti-Mormon issues, stuff that's been answered time and time again. Do you know how much time it would take you to find answers for yourself online? Minutes. I could give you a half a dozen excellent websites. But unless you want to believe, you will find yourself very easily swayed by people who, for whatever reason, want you not to believe.

One other thing you need to consider before severing your ties with the Church: If you didn't have the Church in your life, what would replace it with? Would you become a Catholic? Are you ready to accept the Trinity? Are you ready to pray the Rosary? Would you be comfortable as a Lutheran or a Baptist? Could you buy into the once-saved-always saved mindset? Do you believe that those who never had an opportunity to hear Christ's gospel during their lifetimes are just flat out-of-luck? Because no Church other than yours believes they will have that chance after death. Or maybe you'd want to turn your back on Christianity entirely. Just ask youself if you'd be better off without the Church in your life than you are with it. And see if you can find a copy of the book, "For Those Who Wonder" by D. Jeff Burton. (Try Deseret Book, Seagull Book or Benchmark Books.)

Just be sure of your decision before you make it.

 

[nutshell]

Nutshell,

You know, all I'd like to say at this point is that if you want to find reasons to believe, there are plenty of them. If you want to find reasons not to believe, there are some of them, too. It's all up to you, really. The questions you raised are all old anti-Mormon issues, stuff that's been answered time and time again. Do you know how much time it would take you to find answers for yourself online? Minutes. I could give you a half a dozen excellent websites. But unless you want to believe, you will find yourself very easily swayed by people who, for whatever reason, want you not to believe.

One other thing you need to consider before severing your ties with the Church: If you didn't have the Church in your life, what would replace it with? Would you become a Catholic? Are you ready to accept the Trinity? Are you ready to make Mary an integral part of your worship? Would you be comfortable as a Lutheran or a Baptist? Could you buy into the once-saved-always saved mindset? Do you believe that those who never had an opportunity to hear Christ's gospel during their lifetimes are just flat out-of-luck? Because no Church other than yours believes they will have that chance after death. Or maybe you'd want to turn your back on Christianity entirely. Just ask youself if you'd be better off without the Church in your life than you are with it. And see if you can find a copy of the book, "For Those Who Wonder" by D. Jeff Burton. (Try Deseret Book, Seagull Book or Benchmark Books.)

Just be sure of your decision before you make it.

I know the anti-mormon claims and I know the counterclaims, I've made them enough myself. Because it is a matter of faith the counterclaims are no more or less valid than the anti-mormon claims, IMO.

 

[nutshell]

As for what I'll be replacing the church with...nothing right now i guess. My wife made it clear she'd kick my butt if i didn't get her and the kids to sacrament meeting and participate with her in our calling.

So, as my title suggests, i'm a "Sunday Mormon," going through the motions without any heart. I'm not sure how long I can keep it up.

 

[Katzpur]

Nutshell,

Well, I've always said that I believe it impossible for someone to will himself to believe. But FYI, the book I mentioned is only 128 pages long. Its purpose is not -- I repeat not -- to try to convince you that the Church is true or to build your testimony. It's to help people who are in the exact position you are in as a "Sunday Mormon" cope with the frustration, the doubts, the guilt, and the stress of dealing with your own feelings and with friends and family who don't understand (or know) how you feel. It may be difficult to get since it's kind of old, but it would be worth it.

 

[reyjamiei]

Was he really 14? In one version he said he was 15 and in another he said he was 16. Which was it? It seems like a pretty big deal...why can't he remember how old he was when he was visited by God? Or was it just Jesus? That's another discrepancy between the stories.

I believe it said that he was in his fifteenth year, which could make him either 14 or 15 depending on if it was before or after his birthday.

 

[jonny]

As for what I'll be replacing the church with...nothing right now i guess. My wife made it clear she'd kick my butt if i didn't get her and the kids to sacrament meeting and participate with her in our calling.

So, as my title suggests, i'm a "Sunday Mormon," going through the motions without any heart. I'm not sure how long I can keep it up.

I think everyone goes through things like this from time to time - and those are the times when we need to get back to the basics.

This is what I'd recommend. First, you need to decide whether or not you want to believe. Once you have desire, start evaluating your life. Make a list of the things that might be having a negative effect on your faith and set goals that will help you change them. Get back to the basics. How are your prayers? Are you studying the scriptures? What are you doing to build faith?

You might have to go through the motions for a while. You've read Alma 32 enough to know the rest of the story.