Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
No, a person claiming to be John wrote that at best. There are quite a few pseudographs in the New Testament. You should see what scholars say about John, don't go to apologist sites.
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You know, it's kind of silly to tell a Christian not to go to religious sites to learn about their faith and to rely on secular sources instead. I hope you can see why that's not really realistic.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Not really. Are you saying that all Christians are dishonest? The problem with apologetics sites is that they all tend to be liars for Jesus. There are real scholars that are also Christians.
Dishonest how? You need to consider that it's the historical doctrine of the Church that the Gospels were written by the Four Evangelists (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John). That is the traditional view and for churches that rely on Sacred Tradition, it can't really be changed. The Orthodox are still adamant about that and conservative Catholics and Anglicans would be, as well.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Sooner or later all apologists lie to support their beliefs. That is simply not wise.
It is not "historical doctrine". That phrase is an oxymoron. One should not blind oneself to reality in a false attempt to preserve one's faith. The proper phrase is church tradition. If a belief is shown to be in error a person should be able to adapt, rather than to deny.
Christians are not going to agree with this view. You are basically telling Christians to give up their beliefs and change them according to the whims of society, which is totally the opposite of Christian teaching. You are talking centuries of doctrine passed down from the Saints and Church Fathers, agreed upon at Counsils and adhered to by hundreds of millions of faithful around the world.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Honest ones will. I do not believe that all Christians are dishonest or that one needs to be dishonest to be a Christian.
No one is telling Christians to give up their beliefs to the whims of society. Where do you get that nonsense from? There are ways of testing one's beliefs. One should not be afraid to do so. Once again, this is not even doctrine we are talking about. We are discussing church tradition. They are not one and the same.
Who is being dishonest and in what way?
Sacred Tradition is one avenue where doctrine is derived in Christianity, the other being Holy Scripture. There's not much of a difference between the two.
Shakeel
Well-Known Member
I understand that to say the net effect of convertions is 'a wash'. That's all it can mean since all statistics confirm the over all number of Muslims is certainly growing.
Yeah, due to the birth rate, not because huge numbers of people are converting to it. The Islamic world has a big youth bulge, which is a feature of poor places with low life expectancy. A lot of Muslims convert to Christianity, too. It's hard to parse where exactly the honest views of people living in Muslim societies are because there are generally legal penalties for those born into Islam to publicly question it or consider other religions. I've heard that many people living under harsh Islamic governments would happily dump Islam if they were free to do so. Who knows.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Pretty much all Christian apologists. A poor excuse does not mean that one is not being dishonest.
ecco
Veteran Member
24This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.
Who is the "we" the author refers to? Himself? Even if that were the case, all you have is the author saying "I wrote these things --- I know my testimony is true.
Everyone testifying at any trial says "I know my testimony is true."
26When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
This verse, as all of "john's" verses, are written in the third person. Nowhere does the author say anything like; "I heard Him say: "Woman, behold thy son!"
Also, who is the author referring to when he writes "...the disciple standing by"?
I asked you to show evidence that the authors were actual eyewitnesses to the events. You have given none.
If I write a chapter in a book that says: "God, in the form of a butterfly, landed on my nose", you would have no reason to believe. Even if someone else wrote another chapter in the book and said: "God, in the form of a butterfly, landed on ecco's nose", I doubt you would consider these writing to be truthful.