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Here is your chance to convice me that the Bible is the most reasonable collection of Holy Scripture in the World. Well, you know what to do.
Short answer: If one has not heard of Christ one cannot be guilty of rejecting him. However all mankind is given the creation showing him the Creator, and a conscience, meaning 'with knowledge', God's laws written in his heart. So all men can know when they do wrong and ask God to forgive them. All men will be judged according to the light given them. The greater the light the more responsibility. If a person has heard the Gospel and the Holy Spirit has convicted him of sin and they reject the only Saviour God has provided for us, then they are in serious trouble. Jesus told the religious leaders who saw his works and rejected him that they would receive the greater condemnation. I believe God has it under control and is fair and just and will do the right thing, eh?
So all non-Christians go to hell in your opinion?In light of your first sentence above,please explain to me (2Thess.1:7-9) which teaches those who know not God and obey not the gospel will be punshed when Jesus returns.
Baerly said:Hi, here are some very good lessons on the subject of inspiration.
In Defense of...the Bibles Inspiration [Part I] URL: http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2466
Date: 16 Jul 2007
Excerpt: 5 33 39 in defense of the bible s inspiration part i by bert thompson ph d...
6. Compromises of Genesis URL: http://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/r...of-Genesis.pdf
Date: 16 Nov 2004
Excerpt: school football game moses through inspiration detailed in genesis 3 the breaking... 7. Biblical Inerrancy URL: http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2541
Date: 16 Jul 2007
Excerpt: holy spirit 2 peter 1 21 defining inspiration not only does the bible claim to be... 8. In Defense of...the Bible's Inspiration [Part II] URL: http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2467
Date: 16 Jul 2007
Excerpt: 6 41 47 in defense of the bible s inspiration part ii by bert thompson ph d... 9. The Unity of the Bible URL: http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/3356
Date: 16 Jul 2007
Excerpt: trying to defend paul s claim of inspiration and direct revelation from christ... 10. Introductory Lesson 8--The Inspiration of the Bible URL: http://www.apologeticspress.org/pdfs...df/hsc0108.pdf
Date: 12 Nov 2004
Excerpt: lesson 8 web the inspiration of the bible in lesson 7 we learned... in love Baerly
Hi, here is the verse in context:In light of your first sentence above,please explain to me (2Thess.1:7-9) which teaches those who know not God and obey not the gospel will be punshed when Jesus returns.
in love Baerly
Once again for the hard-of-hearing:Quote:
The wages of sin is death.
All scripture is God-breathed, the Bible is God-breathed. Paul wrote as directed by the Holy Spirit, but, alas, you pick and choose the parts of the Bible you like, I forgot. The wages, penalty, result, consequences of sin is death. Just like gravity, jump off a cliff, you go down. This doctrine found from the beginning of the Bible in The Garden of Eden, (in the day you eat thereof you shall surely die) to the Great White Throne Judgement and all in between is one of the main principles set forth in the Bible and the main reason Jesus died, to pay the wages of sin so we do not have to as a free gift:
Genesis 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Genesis 3:3
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Of course you deny God said the wages of sin is death putting you in very bad company with the lying serpent:
Genesis 3:4
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Ezekiel 3:18
When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die...
Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die...
Malachi 4:1
For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Matthew 13:49
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever thewicked from among the just,
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
See, Paul speaks the truth, Jesus Christ is my Lord and Paul's Lord for we accepted the gift that Jesus paid such a price to give us. Jesus knew the wages of sin and prayed the cup would pass from Him, yet praise God He obeyed and redeemed us with His blood.
Once again for the hard-of-hearing:
What does "wages" have to do with "punishment?"
But "whatever" term you use changes the theology of the statement. To say that the wages of sin is death is to say that death is a consequence of our having sinned. Much like hitting the ground real hard is a consequence of our having jumped off a cliff. Neither is a "punishment."Huh? Like, what was that? Speak up, sonny. Whatever term we use, the punishment for sin, wages of sin, penalty of sin, is death. (Romans 6:23)
From a basic reading of the Genesis text, really. The entire context of the "consequences" of Adam's sin is negative. It results in his shame, curses upon him and his wife, their expulsion from the Garden and God's immediate walk with them, etc.How do you come to that conclusion?
Catholics, lol. And pretty much all of mainstream Protestantism.OK. Who are "most Christians?"
Is that a "No," then?Should it?
I guess this is a difference of perspective. God said it through Paul. That's the definition of Scriptural inspiration.God didn't say that. Paul said it.
Again, I guess this is a difference of perspective. If you think the letter to the Romans applies ONLY to the Romans, and no one else in Christendom, I'd again point out that you're pretty much on the outskirts of Christian thought there.To the Romans.
A negative one, yes.What has "wages" got to do with punishment? Sounds more like a consequence, to me.
And when you don't work, you don't get paid. You may even get fired. Again, as you say, a consequence...an obviously negative one.When I work, I get paid. My wages are a consequence of my having worked. Now "bonus" may be a completely different kettle of fish. But Paul doesn't say that, does he?
Negative consequences do not assume punishment.From a basic reading of the Genesis text, really. The entire context of the "consequences" of Adam's sin is negative. It results in his shame, curses upon him and his wife, their expulsion from the Garden and God's immediate walk with them, etc.
Mainstream Protestants do not make up the majority of Christianity. Even so, I know that neither the Anglicans, nor the Orthodox see death as a punishment, and I doubt that the Romans do, either.Catholics, lol. And pretty much all of mainstream Protestantism.
No. Nor is it a "yes." Why should it matter?Is that a "No," then?
Sorry. That dog won't hunt for me. That's not the definition of "Scriptural inspiration."I guess this is a difference of perspective. God said it through Paul. That's the definition of Scriptural inspiration.
Doesn't apply only to the Romans, but the audience must be taken into account, if we really want to find out what Paul is saying. Otherwise, we're operating on a paradigm of opinion.Again, I guess this is a difference of perspective. If you think the letter to the Romans applies ONLY to the Romans, and no one else in Christendom, I'd again point out that you're pretty much on the outskirts of Christian thought there.
But not a punishment, nevertheless. I stress this because it completely skewes the theology of grace to see it as punishment, whether it's negative, or not.A negative one, yes.
Becaause negativity does not automatically imply "punishment." There's a huge difference, theologically, between "consequence" and "punishment." One is causation. The other is active penal praxis.And when you don't work, you don't get paid. You may even get fired. Again, as you say, a consequence...an obviously negative one.
Am I understanding correctly that you see death as something essentially positive? If yes, how do you come to that conclusion? If no, and you see it as essentially negative, then how can you see death as a consequence of sin without seeing it, implicitly, as a negative consequence (i.e. a punishment, for all intents and purposes)?
Sorry, I should have been more clear...the article I linked you to the first time directly links to the second article in about its first paragraph or two. Since that dealt more directly with the Amalekites, I thought you should see it.That was not the article you linked to me last time.
After their people picked off the weak and defenseless from Israel for a couple hundred years, and refused after numerous generations to be peaceful even though Israel left them completely alone, and it was obvious that the problem would continue if drastic measures weren't taken. Yes, that's correct.Anyway, I have read enough articles. God orders the deaths of civilians and children, who have done absolutely nothing wrong or that deserving of death.
No, I would find a way to punish you. I can't say I'd leave out butchering you as a reasonable possibility either; it would be exactly what you would deserve...just like the Amelikites deserved death after they repeatedly attacked Israel and murdered its weak.It is people like you who would come up with a way to rationalize the Holocaust. I'm sure if I go nextdoor and butcher a family you will find away to get me off the hook as well. Why not?
When you figure out the difference between "question God," and "blaspheme the name of the LORD," then you'll notice the absurdity of your example.Question God:
"And the Israelitish woman's son blasphemed the name of the Lord, and cursed. And they brought him unto Moses...And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard him lay their hands upon his head, and let all the congregation stone him...And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death..."
'Come now, and let us reason together,' says the LORD,Use Reason:
"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding."
"Be fruitful and multiply."Repressing Healthy Sexuality:
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."
I am not that interested in it. I am almost positive the Christian God does not exist. If He does exist, His morals are so abominable that I would be going to hell anyway or I could not convert and worship such a monster.
Calling him morally abominable and a monster probably doesn't tip the scales of "your merits and commitments" terribly high for Him, though, does it?Atheist's Wager:
You should live your life and try to make the world a better place for your being in it, whether or not you believe in God. If there is no God, you have lost nothing and will be remembered fondly by those you left behind. If there is a benevolent God, he may judge you on your merits coupled with your commitments, and not just on whether or not you believed in him.
You call my God, who was tortured and murdered on a cross while you sit there and mock Him, a morally abominable monster and suddenly I'm a meanie because I don't roll over and let you bash on Him? Your perspective is so inexplicably warped I don't even know where to begin.Edit: Sorry if that came out sounding mean Joe. Fervent, just has me in a bad mood.
When they are instituted by an authority (in this case, God) yes, it obviously assumes punishment.Negative consequences do not assume punishment.
Catholics and mainstream Protestants do not make up the majority of Christianity?Mainstream Protestants do not make up the majority of Christianity.
They see it as a negative consequent...instituted by God...as a result of man's sin against Him...that's a punishment, any way you slice it.Even so, I know that neither the Anglicans, nor the Orthodox see death as a punishment, and I doubt that the Romans do, either.
Why should it matter that a Christian church takes a position on salvation by Christ and its basic principles? I dearly hope the answer to that question is self-evident.No. Nor is it a "yes." Why should it matter?
I'm afraid it is.Sorry. That dog won't hunt for me. That's not the definition of "Scriptural inspiration."
Catechism of the Catholic Church said:God is the author of Sacred Scripture. "The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit."
I agree with you there. The book generally applies to the entire Christian Church, yet that statement takes even wider berth in application to all humanity, as that has been the reality since Adam, father of all living.Doesn't apply only to the Romans, but the audience must be taken into account, if we really want to find out what Paul is saying. Otherwise, we're operating on a paradigm of opinion.
How so?But not a punishment, nevertheless. I stress this because it completely skewes the theology of grace to see it as punishment, whether it's negative, or not.
Unless you think the consequence for sin was set by anyone other than God Himself, you're left with the latter.Becaause negativity does not automatically imply "punishment." There's a huge difference, theologically, between "consequence" and "punishment." One is causation. The other is active penal praxis.
The penalty, wages, punishment, sentence, consequence, judgement, or whatever of sin IS DEATH. Therefore in due time Christ died for the ungodly. Jesus took all the sins of the world upon him and the full wrath of God was poured out upon him for those sins. Death is not only a consequence of sin, it is the judgement, God's wrath poured out against sin.But "whatever" term you use changes the theology of the statement. To say that the wages of sin is death is to say that death is a consequence of our having sinned. Much like hitting the ground real hard is a consequence of our having jumped off a cliff. Neither is a "punishment."
Not at all. He who knew no sin was made sin for us that we may be made the righteousness of God in him. Christ was MADE sin for us, the WRATH of God was fully poured out on him for our sins, the righteous suffering for the unrighteous IN OUR PLACE. Christ's substitutionary death for me, in payment of my sins is the greatest truth of the Bible! Romans even declares:If death is not a punishment, but a consequence, then Christ could not be punished for something in our place. Christ could only accept the consequences in our place. Which renders the whole "substitutionary atonement" theology...null and void.
I agree that Christ's death destroyed death and that BELIEVERS do not face the consequences, the judgement, the wrath of God of sin anymore. God does love us and in his great love for us poured out his wrath toward sin on his son, actually on himself. The penalty was paid, not waived, but paid. But only those who have accepted this gift, have trusted in Christ's atoning work on the cross are saved. Those who do not trust Christ to have paid for their sins must pay for them themselves--they are 'condemned already'. He who believes is saved and he who does not believe is damned, this is what the Lord himself said. This is the Gospel Truth, any other 'gospel' is a false and misleading gospel and only lures sinners into a false sense of security. This 'universal salvation' is a lie from the pits of Hell designed to enlarge Hell which is growing increasingly fuller every day. Jesus said, "He that believes in ME has eternal life!" If one denies Christ, does not accept the free gift, is an enemy of the cross, spouts ridicule and derision toward the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, they are damned! Wake up! There is only one name given among men whereby we MUST be saved, the Lord Jesus Christ!Christ's death destroyed death. We do not have to face the consequences of sin anymore, because Christ took care of that.
This is not about an angry God punishing God's children. This is about a loving God taking away the consequence of our sin.
How? In what way does hitting the ground after having jumped off a cliff constitute punishment? The "authority" does not cause us to become hurt -- the ground does a sufficiently thorough job of that, all by itself. Death is a consequence. That has far-reaching implications for soteriology.When they are instituted by an authority (in this case, God) yes, it obviously assumes punishment.
I called roll for the Catholics: Anglicans, Orthodox and Romans. Both the Anglicans and Orthodox do not view death as a punishment. I'm pretty sure the Romans do not, either, but we'd need to check with them. In any case, the Catholics comprise the majority of Christianity.Catholics and mainstream Protestants do not make up the majority of Christianity?
No, it isn't. Sorry.They see it as a negative consequent...instituted by God...as a result of man's sin against Him...that's a punishment, any way you slice it.
**sigh**Why should it matter that a Christian church takes a position on salvation by Christ and its basic principles? I dearly hope the answer to that question is self-evident.
Nope. Sorry. That's not quite the same thing as "God said it." It may be, "God inspirted Paul to write it."I'm afraid it is.
In short, because grace is a mitigatory action. God is mitigatory. Eternal punishment is contrary to God's nature as a God who does not act upon God's wrath.How so?
Just because God "made the rules" does not mean that the consequences of having broken the rules are punitive. Punitive measures are corrective measures. Punishment is always meant to correct bad behavior. Hitting the ground after jumping off a cliff is not corrective in any way. Neither is banishing us eternally for something we did or refrained from doing.Unless you think the consequence for sin was set by anyone other than God Himself, you're left with the latter.
I don't think you can solidly back that up theologically.Death is not only a consequence of sin, it is the judgement, God's wrath poured out against sin.
If that's how you choose to see it. I choose to see God as loving, mitigatory, patient and kind.Not at all. He who knew no sin was made sin for us that we may be made the righteousness of God in him. Christ was MADE sin for us, the WRATH of God was fully poured out on him for our sins, the righteous suffering for the unrighteous IN OUR PLACE. Christ's substitutionary death for me, in payment of my sins is the greatest truth of the Bible!
Penalty assumes punishment. Death is not a punishment.The penalty was paid, not waived, but paid.
Would it make you happy if I said, "The fake one, written by little pink unicorns?"What Bible do you study????????????????????
Just, nevermind for now.Would it make you happy if I said, "The fake one, written by little pink unicorns?"
What kind of question s that?:cover: