Why not Christians?

[*Paul*]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6244392868781886952

I watched this shortfootage today about Messianic Jews living in Israel, why do they reject the name Christian?

 

[dawny0826]

I'm curious about this, myself.

I think "jew" is being used as a cultural term just as much as a religious term, here.

I had an argument with my grandmother the other day about the very same thing and am curious if I'm wrong on this one.

Often times, people refer to a Jew as a "jew" because they are from Israel. My thoughts have always been...well, if you're from Israel, you'd be Israeli right? You're Jewish if you're a JEW...doesn't matter where you're actually from.

So, the whole concept of a Messianic Jew confuses me. It seems almost oxymoronish to me. I'd love for someone to explain it to me because I don't really understand how you're still a Jew if you accept Christ as the messiah.

(Scraches forehead.)

I'm glad you brought this up. I'm hoping a Messianic Jew can clarify for me. I'd like to understand.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Because "Christian" is a Greek word that is indictative of the seperation of "Christianity" and Judaism. In very early Christian texts, Jesus is called Christos, meaning "annointed one" in Greek - Iousous Christos rather than Iousous Messiah. Messiah connects Jesus to the fulfillment of Jewish prophesy and the continuation of Jewish heritage, and Christ indicates only that Jesus is Savior, and demonstrates a seperation from the Old Testament.

 

[Emmalyn]

Read "Our Father Abraham: Jewish Roots of the Christian Faith" by Dr. Marvin Wilson. The christian church and its theology is based on anti-semitism. Christianity, with rare exception, teaches that Yeshua (Jesus) created a new religion (christianity) and a new chosen people.

Emmalyn

 

[ayani]

Emm... i both agree, and disagree.

i am, technically, a Messianic Jew. one who is ethnically Jewish (though not according to Jewish matrilineal law), and who believes Jesus is the Jewish Messiah who came not only for the Jews, His own people, but for all peoples.

He came first for His own people, and then for the Gentiles. if you want to learn more about a Christian / Messianic church which really retained some uniquely Judaic cultural and religious traits, look into the Mar Thoma Christians of India.

having come from a religion which recognizes Jesus as the Mesiah, yet does not tell the entire truth about Him, and minimizes Him, the difference that knowing Jesus does make is indescribably great, and real. to know that He is the Son of God and Messiah, to have trusted Him, and to belong to Him... this is what makes one worthy to bear His name, whether Greek or Hebrew.

 

[Emmalyn]

Emm... i both agree, and disagree.

i am, technically, a Messianic Jew. one who is ethnically Jewish (though not according to Jewish matrilineal law), and who believes Jesus is the Jewish Messiah who came not only for the Jews, His own people, but for all peoples.

He came first for His own people, and then for the Gentiles. if you want to learn more about a Christian / Messianic church which really retained some uniquely Judaic cultural and religious traits, look into the Mar Thoma Christians of India.

having come from a religion which recognizes Jesus as the Mesiah, yet does not tell the entire truth about Him, and minimizes Him, the difference that knowing Jesus does make is indescribably great, and real. to know that He is the Son of God and Messiah, to have trusted Him, and to belong to Him... this is what makes one worthy to bear His name, whether Greek or Hebrew.

Ayani,
I'm not sure what you disagree on since I agree completely with your post.

 

[ayani]

well, i'd disagree with the general sweep that the Christian church today is based on anti-Semitism, and with the concept that Jesus taught a new religion separate from Judaism. i have met quite a few Christians who understand the meaningful and neccesary connection between Judaism and Christianity / Messianic faith, and who don't differentiate much between them, save for the key point of Messiah's identity and what this implies.

i mean... one can't separate the books of the Bible. it's one testimony about the workings of God throughout history, culminating in the sending of His Son, the Messiah. God's justice, righteousness, and holiness doesn't change, neither does His sovereignty. Jesus fulfills for all people the covenant blessing the Jewish people inherited through Abraham. through faith in the Son, we come to know the God who made us. i like Paul's description of being "circumcised of the heart".

a change happens, and you're someone new in relation to God, because of Yeshua. Paul's wording rings true. while many Christians remain ignorant of Judaism, the roots are there, and have never left. despite what many church traditions have added to the Gospel, the Son of God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

 

[Emmalyn]

well, i'd disagree with the general sweep that the Christian church today is based on anti-Semitism, and with the concept that Jesus taught a new religion separate from Judaism. i have met quite a few Christians who understand the meaningful and neccesary connection between Judaism and Christianity / Messianic faith, and who don't differentiate much between them, save for the key point of Messiah's identity and what this implies.

Read "Our Father Abraham". While the present day church may not knowingly promote this anti-semitism, the early church was in replacing the Sabbath (4th commandment) with Sunday and eliminating some of the God ordained feast days (Yom Kippur, Passover, etc.) either replacing them (e.g. Easter for Passover) or just eliminating them. I am meeting more and more christians who are discovering the Hebrew roots of their faith, but that is not the traditional approach by the church.

despite what many church traditions have added to the Gospel, the Son of God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

God may be the same...but are we worshipping the God of the Tanakh (OT)...or have we recreated Him through a misinterpretation of the Apostolic Writings (NT) and are now guilty of idolatry?

.

 

[Zardoz]

I am a Messianic Jew. I am not, by the vast majority of Christian opinion, a Christian.
I care not. I am at peace with my belief, and need no approval. I see no need to follow Paul. I see no need to worry what Christians or anyone else thinks of me. I make no judgments on what my fellow Messianic Jews believe or don't. The waters are muddied, the original Way has been lost over the ages. Some may be reconstructed from what survived, but most of this is what our hearts as Jews tell us. That's why not.

 

[ayani]

Emm ~

guilty of idolatry in what sense?

i did used to rail against Paul, as a Muslim. yet if you look at what Jesus says about Himself within the Gospels, it matches up well to what Paul says about Him. i didn't trust Paul at first, and avoided his writings. yet as i read the Gospels, i was surprised that what Jesus says about Himself there doesn't reject or rule out how Paul characterizes Him.

if one observes how the disciples (and others) respond to Jesus in the Gospel narratives, there's awe, worshipfulness, trust, and devoted love. if we believe Him to be the unique Son of God and Messiah, have trusted Him for salvation, and have devoted our lives to loving and following Him, then what should ultimately matter is Him, not us.

do others see Him in us? can we agree that He matters, and should be preached by all believers in Him, to all who need to hear? is He more important to us than a religious culture, or a label which we may use to draw lines in the sand?

as a believer in Him, i now go to a Baptist congregation. believers who know, adore, follow, and reflect the Lord Jesus gather there, and that is what matters. some speak Hindi, or Malayalam, Gujarati, or Telugu.

remember the miracle of Pentecost, and that the Lord reveals Himself to countless people, who have no Hebraic background. truly, He makes no distinction between Jew and Gentile.

 

[Elessar]

Emm ~

guilty of idolatry in what sense?

i did used to rail against Paul, as a Muslim. yet if you look at what Jesus says about Himself within the Gospels, it matches up well to what Paul says about Him. i didn't trust Paul at first, and avoided his writings. yet as i read the Gospels, i was surprised that what Jesus says about Himself there doesn't reject or rule out how Paul characterizes Him.

if one observes how the disciples (and others) respond to Jesus in the Gospel narratives, there's awe, worshipfulness, trust, and devoted love. if we believe Him to be the unique Son of God and Messiah, have trusted Him for salvation, and have devoted our lives to loving and following Him, then what should ultimately matter is Him, not us.

do others see Him in us? can we agree that He matters, and should be preached by all believers in Him, to all who need to hear? is He more important to us than a religious culture, or a label which we may use to draw lines in the sand?

as a believer in Him, i now go to a Baptist congregation. believers who know, adore, follow, and reflect the Lord Jesus gather there, and that is what matters. some speak Hindi, or Malayalam, Gujarati, or Telugu.

remember the miracle of Pentecost, and that the Lord reveals Himself to countless people, who have no Hebraic background. truly, He makes no distinction between Jew and Gentile.

Wait, you mean the speaking of the talmidim in many tongues on Shavuot? Most of those there were Jewish; Shavuot (English: "Seven Weeks", Greek: "Pentecost" (50 days) is a festival in which Jews from all over the Roman Empire would collect at Jerusalem. But Jews from every part of the Empire, and even outside it (from Persia or Ethiopia) would come there, and, miraculously, they all heard them in their native languages (be they Latin, Greek, Farsi, Amharic or Aramaic).

 

[DallasApple]

Emm... i both agree, and disagree.

i am, technically, a Messianic Jew. one who is ethnically Jewish (though not according to Jewish matrilineal law), and who believes Jesus is the Jewish Messiah who came not only for the Jews, His own people, but for all peoples.

He came first for His own people, and then for the Gentiles. if you want to learn more about a Christian / Messianic church which really retained some uniquely Judaic cultural and religious traits, look into the Mar Thoma Christians of India.

having come from a religion which recognizes Jesus as the Mesiah, yet does not tell the entire truth about Him, and minimizes Him, the difference that knowing Jesus does make is indescribably great, and real. to know that He is the Son of God and Messiah, to have trusted Him, and to belong to Him... this is what makes one worthy to bear His name, whether Greek or Hebrew.

Why did Jesus have a "first" that was "His own People"??

And "Gentiles" were last"? Like scrapings after He gathered His first peoples.

So Jesus has His "own" people?And all the rest "arent" His own people?

Please explain.

Love

DAllas

 

[DallasApple]

And what are Jesus's "own" people? You mean by bloodline? Or genetics?

Love

Dallas

 

[Elessar]

Messiah was a Jew, and he went first to the Jews to clarify the laws of Torah, and to teach about the meanings of passages and the true intentions of the Torah. After this, the Jews who accepted his teachings were sent forth to bring the word of Hashem to the nations of the world. This has to do with the chosen nature of the Jewish People, who were the people whom G-d chose to give his word. It is not because the Jews are better than anyone else, merely that we are first.

Though, to be clear, ayani, being ethnically Jewish and a Christian does not make you a Messianic Jew. I wrote up a summary of what a Messianic Jew is, and, G-d willing, that will be posted here by the Admins in the near future.

 

[Emmalyn]

Emm ~

guilty of idolatry in what sense?

In the sense that we've now created a god in our own image...not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacobs.

yet as i read the Gospels, i was surprised that what Jesus says about Himself there doesn't reject or rule out how Paul characterizes Him.

I've heard some who call themselves 'christian' also call Paul a false disciple. It's because they try to portray Paul as a Greek instead of a Jew and read his writings from the Greek perspective. Paul held Greek citizenship through his father, but he was a devout Jew. He never once contradicted Yeshua.

 

[ayani]

Emm ~

i agree that Paul nowhere contradicts Jesus' words in the Gospels. i was surprised to find this, too.

but could you elaborate on how Christians have created a "new God"? you may be referring to the trinity. i've got my own approach to it, but i'd like to hear yours, first.

Dallas ~ Jesus, being the fulfillment of Jewish prophesy, came first for His own people, then for the Gentiles. the Gentiles as such were not exactly expecting Him. they were going about their business making sacrifices to Zeus, Diana, and and Fortuna, when suddenly the Messiah came. many were saved, and believed.

truly God makes no distinction between those who sincerely believe in His Son, and live to reflect Him. He brings all kinds of sheep into His fold, of any language, color, or ethnic background. it's the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit, and not our ancestry, which make the difference in Messiah.

 

[Zardoz]

... It is not because the Jews are better than anyone else, merely that we are first.

ah, there's the crux of the matter. "You shall be to me a kingdom of priests, a holy nation." That generates a lot of ill will and jealousy. They think this a privilege when in fact it is a curse. I am a Priest, in that I am responsible for them. It is not guilt but responsibility that is the burden of the Jew.

I wrote up a summary of what a Messianic Jew is, and, G-d willing, that will be posted here by the Admins in the near future.

Why does this have to wait for admins? Surely you can post it and they can sticky it later. Just request that any comments be posted in a separate thread, as I did for my Messianic Midrash (still looking for them in old tape backups, oy veh!)
Really, I'm eager to see your summary brother. I will be kind.

 

[Ronald]

Baruch Hashem!
I've been a member of this forum for years and identify more with MJ tham any other group.
Finally a sub-forum! I am excited.
Shalom u'vrachot

 

[David Ben Yosef]

Because "Christian" is a Greek word that is indictative of the seperation of "Christianity" and Judaism. In very early Christian texts, Jesus is called Christos, meaning "annointed one" in Greek - Iousous Christos rather than Iousous Messiah. Messiah connects Jesus to the fulfillment of Jewish prophesy and the continuation of Jewish heritage, and Christ indicates only that Jesus is Savior, and demonstrates a seperation from the Old Testament.

Wow! That's not even close. Not even a little bit. Pretty much everything you said is false. You may want to study up a bit. Just a suggestion.

 

[TinaReno]

Thank You...
This is an interesting question and, as I am new here, I will observe some more before posting my perspective. But thank you for your candid peaceful reparte' (I just left a few of the other dialoges that were exhausting to read - lol)

Shalom