Why Jews believe Jesus is not the messiah

[rosends]

He has written things that in fact connect the New Testament with the Old Testament and has done a brilliant job of doing so.

To reject his writings is to reject OT scripture.

OT scripture does prophecy that the Messiah must suffer and die for the people. You expect a Messiah that will rule the world. How will he rule the world and suffer for the people at the same time? Do you have any OT scripture to reconcile the two?

He has written things through which he has tried to connect things which needn't be connected. The koran does the same -- do you accept the koran when it makes bridges?

To reject his writings is to reject unnecessary and invalid claims and theological changes.

The tanach never says that the messiah will suffer and die for the people. When you start with a mistaken notion, you then need to find a way to "reconcile."

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It is hardly strung together. The quotes are used in a dissertation that makes good sense.

Dissertation proving what?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The tanach never says that the messiah will suffer and die for the people. When you start with a mistaken notion, you then need to find a way to "reconcile."

It's called eisegesis.

 

[rosends]

It's called eisegesis.

sure...start with the conclusion and find what you are looking for, and you know what -- I'm willing to say that we all do that. But at least I admit it and don;t expect anyone to be persuaded by my process as long as they don't expect me to be persuaded by theirs.

 

[viole]

That's quite irrelevant.

It is very relevant, I think.

It shows that people can sacrifice their lives for something obviously not true. Which completely defeats any claim of truth of a certain belief based on the readiness to die for it.

Unless you think that a belief in alien starships playing hide and seek with comets is rationally justified, of course.

Ciao

- viole

 

[First Baseman]

He has written things through which he has tried to connect things which needn't be connected. The koran does the same -- do you accept the koran when it makes bridges?

To reject his writings is to reject unnecessary and invalid claims and theological changes.

The tanach never says that the messiah will suffer and die for the people. When you start with a mistaken notion, you then need to find a way to "reconcile."

http://www.brithadasha.org/index.php/messianic-judaism/messianic-prophecies

Read under the topic, "The Suffering Servant of the Lord." There are many prophecies concerning the suffering of the Messiah.

 

[First Baseman]

And again, I'm not discussing all of these texts you allude to, only the NT and the OT.

 

[First Baseman]

Dissertation proving what?

The conclusions of the author elude your understanding? Surely you they do not.

 

[First Baseman]

It's called eisegesis.

Nearly every argument that exists is composed of first supposing a conclusion, then researching to prove whether the conclusion assumed is true or not.

No one ever starts at complete neutrality. If you did you would never discover anything.

 

[rosends]

http://www.brithadasha.org/index.php/messianic-judaism/messianic-prophecies

Read under the topic, "The Suffering Servant of the Lord." There are many prophecies concerning the suffering of the Messiah.

I have read all that. Have you read http://drazin.com/?12._The_Suffering_Servant ?
The "messianic" uses of the text begin with mistranslations, move to bits taken out of context and then move on to real problems from there.

 

[First Baseman]

It is very relevant, I think.

It shows that people can sacrifice their lives for something obviously not true. Which completely defeats any claim of truth of a certain belief based on the readiness to die for it.

Unless you think that a belief in alien starships playing hide and seek with comets is rationally justified, of course.

Ciao

- viole

You may drop out of the discussion, thank you for participating. Your logic is not sound and therefore you are too dull of hearing to continue meaningful conversation.

 

[rosends]

And again, I'm not discussing all of these texts you allude to, only the NT and the OT.

There was no "OT" because there is no "NT." Do you see how even in nomenclature you are starting with a bias you won't escape?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Read under the topic, "The Suffering Servant of the Lord." There are many prophecies concerning the suffering of the Messiah.

People see what they want to see. So, for example, here.

(Can't wait till we get to the ludicrous distortion of Isaiah 7:14.)​

 

[First Baseman]

I have read all that. Have you read http://drazin.com/?12._The_Suffering_Servant ?
The "messianic" uses of the text begin with mistranslations, move to bits taken out of context and then move on to real problems from there.

Being with the first passage quoted in The Suffering Servant and refute as much of it as you are able.

 

[First Baseman]

There was no "OT" because there is no "NT." Do you see how even in nomenclature you are starting with a bias you won't escape?

No bias. There is a published Old Testament and New Testament. Stop ducking the issue.

 

[First Baseman]

People see what they want to see. So, for example, here.

(Can't wait till we get to the ludicrous distortion of Isaiah 7:14.)​

Begin with the first passage and make your argument against it, then proceed on.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Begin with the first passage and make your argument against it, then proceed on.

Are you referring to the following?

PSALMS 69:5

They who hate me without cause are more than the hairs of my head; mighty are those who would destroy me, who hate me wrongfully; what I did not steal, must I now restore?

Jesus quotes this passage in reference to himself: ...

​

 

[rosends]

Being with the first passage quoted in The Suffering Servant and refute as much of it as you are able.

Let's see...the first 2 (under "birth") are Genesis 3:15 and Isaiah 7:14.
The claim on the page is that all these verses "point to Yeshua".
Genesis doesn't mention anyone by that name and is a curse spoken to a snake saying that humans and snakes won't be friends. No Jesus there.

The Isaiah one has been destroyed so many times that it is silly (and in fact, predicted by Jayhawker). It has nothing to do with Jesus (by any name). If you see a Jesus in there it it because you
a) are working with a mistranslation
and
b) need to find Jesus to support your theology

 

[rosends]

No bias. There is a published Old Testament and New Testament. Stop ducking the issue.

There is a publication of text which is called the "Old Testament" but from my perspective, as the gospels are not a testament of anything, nothing can be made old by comparison. Those who named it when they published it did so out of the same religious bias that you suffer under.

 

[First Baseman]

Are you referring to the following?

​

That verse is not in The Suffering Servant of the Lord in my reference.