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Why Elohim if God is Absolutely One?
- Thread starter Ben Avraham
- Start date
The explain why God used a singular noun with a plural ending. I will ask you the same question---who is the "us" and "our" in Genesis 1:26.
Stick to the right word, Elohim, not elohist. It was not first used by pagans. Elohim is the first word for God in God's word. Your post will not change the word and it will not answer the question I ask.
Neither one of your suggestions are true. I may have misread somethng you said, that I thought you said or implied Elohim is not God.
I understand you perfectly. That is why I reject what you say. This is not about my understanding of Hebrew. It is about one word and I understand it better than you do.
Why don't you answer the question I ask?
Quit beating around the bush. Answer my question or admit you can't.
I didn't say your experts, I sad YOU.
Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
I don't speak from suggestions but from the logical point of view.
Coder
Member
Hi, as I already said, the "us" is the "multiple gods" from pre-monotheistic beliefs which the Jews corrected at least theologically with the doctrine of belief in one God. I think that perhaps pagan "leftovers" may also be perpetuated in Christianity due to adaptations under a domineering Greco-Roman pagan Roman Empire, even though originally corrected in Judaism. St. Paul talked about the "foolish Galatians" going backward, well, the Trinity doctrine? I believe that God is One Personal Being and humans can relate to Him as one Personal Being, I don't see how the Trinity doctrine shows belief that a person can have a Personal relationship with God except with one or more of the Persons. Do you pray to three Persons at the same time? If you pray to God as one Personal Being, then apparently you preach the Trinity but don't actually practice it?
The Jewish «Roots» of the Holy Spirit - Lea Sestieri
... in Jewish scripture the Holy Spirit is never presented as a person...the fact remains that Christian pneumatological terminology is rooted in that of the Jewish religion...
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Coder
Member
You're on religious forums, get used to it and enjoy it
rosends
Well-Known Member
Here, as to "na'aseh" the plural "our" in Gen 1:26, as answered over a thousand years ago (nihil sub sole novum):
Let us make man: From here we learn the humility of the Holy One, blessed be He. Since man was created in the likeness of the angels, and they would envy him, He consulted them. And when He judges kings, He consults with His Heavenly household, for so we find regarding Ahab, that Micah said to him, (I Kings 22:19): “I saw the Lord seated on His throne, and all the host of heaven were standing by Him, on His right and on His left.”
Let us make man: Even though they [the angels] did not assist Him in His creation, and there is an opportunity for the heretics to rebel (to misconstrue the plural as a basis for their heresies), Scripture did not hesitate to teach proper conduct and the trait of humility, that a great person should consult with and receive permission from a smaller one. Had it been written: “I shall make man,” we would not have learned that He was speaking with His tribunal, but to Himself. And the refutation to the heretics is written alongside it [i. e., in the following verse:]“And God created (וַיִּבְרָא) ,” and it does not say,“and they created וַיִּבְרְאוּ.” - [from Gen. Rabbah 8:9]
Let us make man: From here we learn the humility of the Holy One, blessed be He. Since man was created in the likeness of the angels, and they would envy him, He consulted them. And when He judges kings, He consults with His Heavenly household, for so we find regarding Ahab, that Micah said to him, (I Kings 22:19): “I saw the Lord seated on His throne, and all the host of heaven were standing by Him, on His right and on His left.”
Let us make man: Even though they [the angels] did not assist Him in His creation, and there is an opportunity for the heretics to rebel (to misconstrue the plural as a basis for their heresies), Scripture did not hesitate to teach proper conduct and the trait of humility, that a great person should consult with and receive permission from a smaller one. Had it been written: “I shall make man,” we would not have learned that He was speaking with His tribunal, but to Himself. And the refutation to the heretics is written alongside it [i. e., in the following verse:]“And God created (וַיִּבְרָא) ,” and it does not say,“and they created וַיִּבְרְאוּ.” - [from Gen. Rabbah 8:9]
everything has a mind, a body, and a spirit. these three make up the ONE, or complex. When praying to the ONE it has 3 main aspects. It is all knowing. It is all present. It is all loving.
Numbers 27:18
So the LORD said to Moses, “Take Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the Spirit, and lay your hand on him.
fallingblood
Agnostic Theist
I find it telling that this is the issue you focus on, and not my rebuttals to your other posts, such as where I show you were incorrect about the origin of Yahweh. But lets break this down. You say they (in context, that is Jews) killed their salvation (Jesus). You stated that Jews killed Christ. That is exactly where the term Christ killer comes from.I haven't labelled anyone, and wouldn't say any of them slanderous remarks; the Biblical text states what we've been talking about, and find your accusations rude.
Again I'm not even sure, where you're making up all this idea from? Unless you don't understand was quoting Zechariah 11, as the divorce decree?
The problem is that one, it is an over generalization, as the followers of Jesus were Jews. And most Jews didn't care about Jesus, he was just one more so called Messiah. Second, it was the Romans who killed Jesus, not Jews. So to claim that Jews killed Christ (where the term Christ killer comes from), is the same exact statements that helped lead to the persecution of Jewish people.
That's a limited view of the Messiah. During the first century, there were many different views as to what the Messiah was supposed to be. However, the one key similarity was that they were supposed to bring in the Kingdom of G-d, or heaven, which would replace the current Kingdom of Earth.
In many ways, it was seen as a manner in which people would be saved, as in, the current system of subjugation would be cast off, and the Jewish people would be free.
Those weren't prophecies for the Messiah, or even a future time though, at least not a very future time. This was only attributed to Jesus much after the fact, as people began searching through the Bible in order to justify their position that Jesus was the Messiah.
Except Yeshua was pretty limited in his ministry. Primary Galilee, and then a bit in Jerusalem. He spoke very seldom of the Law, but stated that not one iota of the law would change. Really, his message was that of a Pharisee.
But you haven't. What you've done is look at an ancient book, and looked at events that happened afterwards, and tried to smash them together because they fit your ideology. You've really changed what the Biblical prophets have said in order to fit your beliefs.
I would say that you probably don't understand the Biblical texts as much as many Christians don't. What you've done is taken verses out of context, and then molded them to fit your faith, while ignoring their original meanings.
But I've already shown that your understanding of El, and how he relates to Yahweh, is incorrect. They weren't the same entity. Also, it must be remembered that the term el also is a generic term for god.
Coder
Member
Hi, you have asked who the us is.
https://outreachjudaism.org/elohim-plural/
"With these passages in mind, we have a deeper understanding of the name Elohim. The pagan mind ascribed a separate and distinct god for each of the powers in the world which it observed, "
That's the "us". That's who the "us" and "our" is. The "us" and "our" is pre-monotheistic gods. There's your answer. It's pre-monotheistic gods.
This ancient word is used in Genesis but Jewish doctrine uses this same word with monotheistic meaning. The ancient meaning no longer applies in Judaism. Same word, with one meaning prior to Judaism and another meaning in Judaism.
The truth shall set you free.
https://outreachjudaism.org/elohim-plural/
"...the Jewish people never believed in a Trinity, and the Church adopted it under enormous political pressure from the most pagan segments..."
The Jewish «Roots» of the Holy Spirit - Lea Sestieri
"...in Jewish scripture the Holy Spirit is never presented as a person...the fact remains that Christian pneumatological terminology is rooted in that of the Jewish religion."
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Coder
Member
...Or maybe you just believe what you've been told, originally due to dominant Roman Emperors.
There's lots of that in religions you know, going with flow, believing what you're told, even when people deep down believe something may be nonsense.
no, my understanding comes from a couple of sources....Or maybe you just believe what you've been told, originally due to dominant Roman Emperors.
There's lots of that in religions you know, going with flow, believing what you're told, even when people deep down believe something may be nonsense.
none of them being roman; in fact they predate the roman by 1000s of yrs and influenced roman and greek thinking.
The things we relate deal with whole chapters in context, not taking odd lines out of context.... This is what "strain a gnat, gain a camel" means.
The line says 'prophets' and Moses, and we've been quoting from multiple prophets to establish Yeshua's credentials...
Yet sadly as the line implies, speaking about the Jews in the first place; you don't listen to them, else you'd realize how Yeshua fulfilled the Law, with him and Moses in agreement (Transfiguration).
If someone was paying attention to the Law, and Prophets, they'd see how Christianity is the Great Deception, explained in detail by the Prophets, including Yeshua...
Yet sadly people don't listen, they're too busy competing from their own ego, to properly pay attention.
First off, can you stop that; I'm not a Christian!
I don't accept John, Paul and Simon the stone (petros), which is where Christianity came from, first established in Antioch.
Habakkuk 2 doesn't need his name, the qualifying matches are validation....
First off, woe to the proud man who drinks, and collects many pledges that are not his own; clearly in the name of jesus, they collect pledges....
Then a city is built on blood shed where they worship him as a wooden idol, i.e Roman catholic church....
The just shall live by his faith, i.e. Christianity.
You're repeating it dogmatically, like somehow it religiously has to be, regardless of the facts shown.
A messiah can be anyone anointed with holy anointing oil, prophets, monarchy; who then have the spirit of God within them...
Not everyone has this effect of finding God, which is why it became a proverb "is Saul among the prophets".
People haven't made the holy anointing oil properly for ages, most don't even recognize it should contain Kaneh-Bosem (Cannabis); as the THC causes it to become a
molecular compound.
Then there is a specific person who shall reign in the Messianic age; this is The Messiah.
Israel to me means 'those who shall reign with God', that is why the remnant of Israel are those who shall survive through the Tribulation.
The things we relate deal with whole chapters in context, not taking odd lines out of context.... This is what "strain a gnat, gain a camel" means.
jesus didn't even quote a whole verse yet you think it odd
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
To be honest you've got so many points incorrect, following the same illogical thinking as many scholars do; plus on being rude, had no reason to reply, and try to correct you, when you're convince you're making sense from all angles.
I've not used any words like that, seriously this is why I've asked where were you referring to....
Since i know anyways will explain (so we can deal with some form of facts); since you're clearly just going to continue being rude, inserting slanderous remarks into my mouth.
Zechariah 11, speaks against 3 foolish shepherds in charge of the flock for slaughter; these were Pharisee, Sadducee and Levites, these could have chosen to accept Yeshua as king, and prophecy would have been different, this is what i was referring to not the Jews.
The Biblical text specifies in the Parable of the Wicked Husbandmen, that the Pharisees decided to have him put to death from that point, the gospel of Nicodemus explains how they forced the arm of Pilate, you're own conclusion that the Romans being the executor, employed by the Sanhedrin, then makes them innocent of his blood, is ridiculous, as the text it self says, "his blood is upon us".
Instead of dismiss Yeshua from the Tanakh, it helps try to see if you understand it within all contexts.
Coder
Member
Hmmmm, could that possibly be influenced by the Roman Empire trying to unite an empire under one religion after centuries of conflict with Jews who refused to worship Jupiter and the emperor as son of god (Divi Filius)? Perhaps a bit of Roman propaganda showing through?
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Hmmmm, could that possibly be an insertion by the Roman Empire trying to unite an Empire under one religion after centuries of conflict with Jews who refused to worship Jupiter and the emperor as son of god (Divi Filius)? Perhaps a bit of Roman bitterness and propaganda showing through? The sound of that Scripture shows the mentality of a 2 year-old. I respect Scripture, but sometimes maybe God in his Word is really just revealing to us how stupid and un-God-like we humans can be.
you can't profit what you can't control.. if you can't control the image, the brand, you can't reap the rewards from it. enslave the masses in ignorance and you've got power. there is a bug in the program, I AM that i am
nataraja is going to dance like isaiah until the spirit flows freely.
Yes it is possible, it is also possible the whole text could be made up; yet Zechariah 11:11 says the same thing, that the statement could've been made by the poor of the flock .i.e Ebionites, and other people who followed Yeshua's teachings.
Yes it is possible, it is also possible the whole text could be made up; yet Zechariah 11:11 says the same thing, that the statement could've been made by the poor of the flock .i.e Ebionites, and other people who followed Yeshua's teachings.
the truth doesn't belong to a person. God is not a respecter of persons, not even of your idol.
Jesus was an instrument. God was the power operating through the instrument, the prophet.
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.