Why Dont Christians Accept the Book of Mormon as Valid?

[ukMethodist]

Really? Then how did you accept the misrepresentations and half truths presented in the video you posted?

Who said I did?

 

[ukMethodist]

Look, I studied media, I understand what is left out and which side is emphasised, that doesn't mean that there are not valid questions raised within the film, that your 'reply'-text doesn't answer.

Do you think you can become a God in the afterlife together with your wife?

Do you think Satan is the brother of Jesus?

Do you think there is more then one God?

 

[Apex]

Look, I studied media, I understand what is left out and which side is emphasised, that doesn't mean that there are not valid questions raised within the film, that your 'reply'-text doesn't answer.

Do you think you can become a God in the afterlife together with your wife?

Do you think Satan is the brother of Jesus?

Do you think there is more then one God?

Can you expound on the issues you do not believe the reply adequately explains? (And I really do not hope you are talking about the 3 points you just gave)

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Look, I studied media, I understand what is left out and which side is emphasised, that doesn't mean that there are not valid questions raised within the film, that your 'reply'-text doesn't answer.

Can I answer?

Do you think you can become a God in the afterlife together with your wife?

I don't know. I don't really worry about it. I know we can become Godlike. Do we become Gods in the same way as Heavenly Father? I don't think so. But it's not really doctrine one way or the other. I know people who believe yes and people who believe no.

Do you think Satan is the brother of Jesus?

Yes. In a spiritual sense, we are all God's children. This includes Satan, Jesus, and all of the human race.

Do you think there is more then one God?

Well, have you ever met more than one God? I haven't. Have you ever experienced more than one? I haven't. Has more than one God ever spoken to you? They haven't to me. If there are other gods out there, they don't concern me. Can I prove they don't exist? No. God says "There are no God's beside me." Does that mean he is the only God? He is certainly our only God. Isn't that good enough?

 

[ἀλήθεια]

Can I answer?
I don't know. I don't really worry about it. I know we can become Godlike. Do we become Gods in the same way as Heavenly Father? I don't think so. But it's not really doctrine one way or the other. I know people who believe yes and people who believe no.

For a religion that claims to have so much more than the Bible, you would think that LDS would be considering the afterlife and know what eternal life means to them.

Yes. In a spiritual sense, we are all God's children. This includes Satan, Jesus, and all of the human race.

How odd that sounds. "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:" (John 1:12)

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." (John 8:44)

Well, have you ever met more than one God? I haven't. Have you ever experienced more than one? I haven't. Has more than one God ever spoken to you? They haven't to me. If there are other gods out there, they don't concern me. Can I prove they don't exist? No. God says "There are no God's beside me." Does that mean he is the only God? He is certainly our only God. Isn't that good enough?

So do you disagree with your founder Joseph Smith who saw two personages out in the woods in upstate New York? And you also disagree with the creation account in the Pearl of Great Price?

1 And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the aGods, borganized and formed the cheavens and the earth.
2 And the earth, after it was formed, was empty and desolate, because they had not formed anything but the earth; and adarkness reigned upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of the Gods bwas brooding upon the face of the waters.

3 And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light; and there was light.

4 And they (the Gods) comprehended the light, for it was abright; and they divided the light, or caused it to be divided, from the darkness.

5 And the Gods called the light Day, and the darkness they called Night. And it came to pass that from the evening until morning they called anight; and from the morning until the evening they called day; and this was the first, or the beginning, of that which they called day and night.

6 And the Gods also said: Let there be an aexpanse in the midst of the waters, and it shall divide the waters from the waters.

7 And the Gods ordered the expanse, so that it divided the waters which were under the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so, even as they ordered.

8 And the Gods called the expanse, Heaven... (Pearl of Great Price, Abraham Chapter 4)

 

[Katzpur]

Do you think you can become a God in the afterlife together with your wife?

Through the scriptures, we learn that, as children of God, we may also be His heirs, joint-heirs with Christ, even glorified with Him. We might partake of the nature of divinity and be allowed to sit with our Savior on His throne, to rule over the nations. (See Romans 8:16-17, 2 Peter 1:4, Revelation 2:26-27 and Revelation 3:21) Maybe the problem is just one of semantics, but to the Latter-day Saints, these scriptures seem to teach that we can become like God.

In the second century, Saint Irenaeus said, “If the Word became a man, it was so men may become gods.” He also posed this question: “Do we cast blame on Him (God) because we were not made gods from the beginning, but were at first created merely as men, and than later as Gods?” At about the same period of time, Saint Clement made this statement: “The Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god.” And Saint Justin Martyr agreed, saying that men are “deemed worthy of becoming gods and of having power to become sons of the highest.” Some two centuries later, Athanasius explained that “the Word was made flesh in order that we might be enabled to be made gods. He became man that we might be made divine.” And, finally, Augustine, said, “But He that justifies also deifies, for by justifying he makes sons of God. For he has given them power to become the sons of God. If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods.”

The Westminster Dictionary of Christian Theology states, “Deification (Greek theosis) is for Orthodoxy the goal of every Christian. Man, according to the Bible, is made in the image and likeness of God…. It is possible for man to become like God, to become deified, to become god by grace.”

And finally, the noted Christian theologian, C.S. Lewis, said (in his book Mere Christianity):

“The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were “gods” and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him – for we can prevent Him, if we choose – He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said."

The vast majority of Christians today are appalled by the suggestion that our Heavenly Father has given us the potential to become as He is. We are His sons and daughters, created in His image. Why wouldn't He want us to become what sons and daughters of deity should become? We don't believe that anyone could become like God without this being His will, and we don't believe that we will ever been on the same level as He is. He will always be our God and we will always worship Him, but we do believe that this is something He wants for us. What Father would want His children to strive for mediocrity?

Do you think Satan is the brother of Jesus?

This is a question we get all the time, and it's one that completely baffles me. Yes, we believe that they were both God's offspring, as each of us is. Unlike Satan/Lucifer and unlike us, though, Jesus Christ was God's Only Begotten Son. The rest of us are His spirit sons and daughters. Satan/Lucifer, however, forfeited the right to be known as a son of God when he rebelled against his Father and was cast out of Heaven. So, when we refer to Satan/Lucifer and Jesus as brothers, we're referring to a relationship that once existed but which no longer exists. The thing about this question that bugs me -- and maybe you could help me out here -- is why it's such a big deal to believe that God had one son who was perfect (Jesus), many more who were, to varying degrees, obedient and righteous (i.e. us), some who were more evil than good (Judas, Hitler, etc.) and one who is pretty much the epitomy of evil (Satan/Lucifer). How does this in any way reflect on the absolute goodness of Jesus?

Do you think there is more then one God?

There are no other gods that have any influence upon us, no other gods who can hear and answer our prayers, no other gods who will stand in judgment of us someday. In short, no other gods over this earth. Much to the horror and disbelief of other Christians, the Latter-day Saints believe in the existence of beings that can be described as "divine," in some sense of the word. As to who or what they are, we can only guess, but we do recognize that they exist. We believe, as Paul did, that while there are many who can be called "gods," "to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him..."

The Bible says that God is "God of gods" and "a mighty God." The indefinite pronoun "a" is itself an indication that more than one "god" exists. Otherwise, the word "the" would more likely have been used. Obviously God is not "God of false gods," so you can't just say that every reference to "gods" in the scriptures is referring to false gods. The "gods" mentioned in the scriptures are, in my opinion, beings who have certain divine qualities. God (our God) is the mightiest of all of them. They are all subject to Him, just as we are. I think the biggest issue here is what the scriptures really mean by the word "gods." Just out of curiosity, who do you believe the "gods" were in these verses:

Deuteronomy 10:17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward…

Joshua 22:22 The Lord God of gods, the Lord God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion, or if in transgression against the LORD…

 

[ἀλήθεια]

Early church fathers undoubtedly spoke of the time when the saints would become partakers of the nature of God, but do not become Gods.

II Peter 1:4 says "Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

"...it is not possible for any created being to become, ontologically, God or even another god."
Theosis - OrthodoxWiki

Isaiah 43:10 says "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me."

 

[ἀλήθεια]

The Bible says that God is "God of gods" and "a mighty God." The indefinite pronoun "a" is itself an indication that more than one "god" exists. Otherwise, the word "the" would more likely have been used. Obviously God is not "God of false gods," so you can't just say that every reference to "gods" in the scriptures is referring to false gods. The "gods" mentioned in the scriptures are, in my opinion, beings who have certain divine qualities. God (our God) is the mightiest of all of them. They are all subject to Him, just as we are. I think the biggest issue here is what the scriptures really mean by the word "gods."

For all the gods of the people are idols: but the LORD made the heavens. (1 Chronicles 16:26)

For all the gods of the nations are idols: but the LORD made the heavens. (Psalm 96:5)

But then the LDS teachings are:

1 God Was Once a Man
As We Are Now
When he was a young man, Lorenzo Snow was promised by the Lord through the Patriarch to the Church that through obedience to the gospel he could become as great as God," and you cannot wish to be greater"(Eliza R. Snow, Biography and Family Record of Lorenzo Snow, pp. 9-10).

President Lorenzo Snow recorded this experience that occurred when he was still a young elder: "The Spirit of the Lord rested mightily upon me—the eyes of my understanding were opened, and I saw as clear as the sun shone at noon-day, with wonder and astonishment, the pathway of God and man." Elder Snow expressed this new found understanding in these words: "As man now is, God once was: As God now is, man may be." Later the Prophet Joseph Smith assured him: "Brother Snow, that is true gospel doctrine, and it is a revelation from God to you" (quoted by LeRoi C. Snow, in "Devotion to Divine Inspiration," Improvement Era, June 1919, pp. 651-56).

The Prophet Joseph Smith said:
"...It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth" (Teachings, pp. 345-46; italics in original).

President Brigham Young elaborated on this concept: "It must be that God knows something about temporal things, and has a body and been on an earth; were it not so He would not know how to judge men righteously, according to the temptations and sins they have had to contend with" (as cited by Harold B. Lee, in Conference Report, Apr. 1969, p. 130; or Improvement Era, June 1969, p. 104).
3 Nephi 12:48. What are some of the meanings implied in this passage?________________________________________________________

Could the words "even as" have reference to the way as well as the accomplishment? Does Jesus ask that we do anything that he was not willing to do himself?_______________________________


Search These Commandments, Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, Copyright 1984, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, p. 151-152

 

[ἀλήθεια]

Doctrine and Covenants, Introduction to Section 132:
1–6, Exaltation is gained through the new and everlasting covenant; 7–14, The terms and conditions of that covenant are set forth; 15–20, Celestial marriage and a continuation of the family unit enable men to become gods; 21–25, The strait and narrow way that leads to eternal lives; 26–27...


19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever. (D&C 132:19)

 

[Watchmen]

whatever-your-name-is is interpreting what's posted through her biased eyes. She doesn't understand the true meaning of what she's posting.

 

[DarkMaster24]

If I become a Mormon can I become the god of my own universe? Is that what I'm reading?

 

[DarkMaster24]

Oh, and the poster's name is Daniela.

 

[edward]

whatever-your-name-is is interpreting what's posted through her biased eyes. She doesn't understand the true meaning of what she's posting.

Are you posting TO her or ABOUT her? It is hard to tell as you have mixed your grammar up pretty bad. Is this your unbiased opinion? Do you not post through YOUR biased eyes? This seems to be the way that we all are. We all carry some biases into our communiques. I haven't seen her comment very much at all. What I DO see is a group of related scripture quotes and documented text from LDS leaders. What has she "misinterpreted?" Has she erred in what she has posted

For the record, ἀλήθεια's name can be anglicized as "aletheia" for those of us who are too slothful to cut and paste and/or unwilling to learn a little of the Greek alphabet. . There appears to be a little bit of "monkey see, monkey do" from post 1400. It is too bad that people can't stick to the topics at hand, eliminate the sophomoric attempts at diversions and just try to be civil with each other whether writing to or about the person. Don't you think that would make for a better atmosophere around here and allow for more civilized dialogue?

Edward

 

[ἀλήθεια]

If I become a Mormon can I become the god of my own universe? Is that what I'm reading?

Well, are you asking what they taught in the twentieth century or in the twenty-first century? Here Katzpur and DavyCrocket2003, like the late Gordon B. Hinckley,seem to be claiming that they don't know much about it.

Be careful in presenting this material that you don’t bring God down to man’s level. Our objective is to perfect ourselves and raise our level to his exalted place.
(Search These Commandments, Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, Copyright 1984, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, p. 158)

"Each one of you has it within the realm of his possibility to develop a kingdom over which you will preside as its king and god. You will need to develop yourself and grow in ability and power and worthiness, to govern such a world with all of its people. You are sent to this earth not merely to have a good time or to satisfy urges or passions or desires. You are sent to this earth, not to ride merry-go-rounds, airplanes, automobiles, and have what the world calls ‘fun.’

"You are sent to this world with a very serious purpose. You are sent to school, for that matter, to begin as a human infant and grow to unbelievable proportions in wisdom, judgment, knowledge, and power. That is why you and I cannot be satisfied with saying merely ‘I like that or want that.’ That is why in our childhood and our youth and our young adulthood we must stretch and grow and remember and prepare for the later life when limitations will terminate so that we can go on and on and on" (Spencer W. Kimball, ". . . the Matter of Marriage" [address delivered at University of Utah Institute of Religion, 22 Oct. 1976], 2). - Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, Chapter 10

Now if you look at Doctrine and Covenants 132:19, it talks about "a continuation of the seeds forever." IOW, the husband and wife will be making children, but because the parents are of a celestial glory, their children would be spirit children without physical bodies. In order for those spirit children to grow up and become gods, they would need physical bodies and they would have to prove themselves on an earth just as their heavenly parents did.

"Because of the Fall of Adam and Eve, we are subject to physical death, which is the separation of the spirit from the body. Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, all people will be resurrected and saved from physical death (see 1 Corinthians 15:22). Resurrection is the reuniting of the spirit with the body in an immortal state, no longer subject to disease or death."
lds.org

Apostle Bruce R. McConkie taught:
"Mortal persons who overcome all things and gain an ultimate exaltation will live eternally in the family unit and have spirit children, thus becoming Eternal Fathers and Mothers.(D. & C. 132:19-32.) Indeed, the formal pronouncement of the Church by the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve states: 'So far as eternal progression have been made made known through divine revelation, we are to understand that only resurrected and glorified beings can become parents of spirit offspring.' (Man: His Origin and Destiny, p. 129.)" Mormon Doctrine, Second Edition 1976, p.517

Joseph Smith taught:
"In this way both the Father and the Son, as also all exalted beings, are now or in due course will become Gods of Gods." Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 342-376

"...and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another..." Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 346-347

Brigham Young taught:
"The Lord created you and me for the purpose of becoming Gods like himself."
Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 93

 

[Apex]

Looks like we got another Fish Hunter.

 

[Katzpur]

If I become a Mormon can I become the god of my own universe?

DarkMaster, you're the god of your own little universe right now.

Is that what I'm reading?

I don't know what you're reading. Which post led you to believe that.

 

[Katzpur]

Looks like we got another Fish Hunter.

Yeah, but I'm a quick study. I wasted a whole lot of my time with Fish Hunter. This time I'm not going to do that.

 

[DarkMaster24]

DarkMaster, you're the god of your own little universe right now.I don't know what you're reading. Which post led you to believe that.

Indeed, I am. As God of this universe I command you to worship me! Muahhahaha.

Not willing? Eh, can't say I didn't see that comming.

The posts that some of the non-Mormon Christians were making that were attributed to some of your religion's founders. If those quotes are legitimate, and I'm understanding them correctly, it means Mormons can become Gods/gods someday. Werent you saying the same thing?

 

[RemnanteK]

In the way I see it 'God' created us to have dominion over earth and create life (make babies) and to live in his love.
In those we are made in his image, but to call myself a god because of it?
I think there is only room for one 'God' in heaven, just look at how wanting to be god worked out for satan.

 

[Watchmen]

Are you posting TO her or ABOUT her? It is hard to tell as you have mixed your grammar up pretty bad. Is this your unbiased opinion? Do you not post through YOUR biased eyes? This seems to be the way that we all are. We all carry some biases into our communiques. I haven't seen her comment very much at all. What I DO see is a group of related scripture quotes and documented text from LDS leaders. What has she "misinterpreted?" Has she erred in what she has posted

For the record, ἀλήθεια's name can be anglicized as "aletheia" for those of us who are too slothful to cut and paste and/or unwilling to learn a little of the Greek alphabet. . There appears to be a little bit of "monkey see, monkey do" from post 1400. It is too bad that people can't stick to the topics at hand, eliminate the sophomoric attempts at diversions and just try to be civil with each other whether writing to or about the person. Don't you think that would make for a better atmosophere around here and allow for more civilized dialogue?

Edward

Edward, you're new around here so I'll be nice. What's her name has not been civil with the LDS community one jot or tittle. There's a history of it that you're not aware of.

Thanks for showing up though. Will you have anything of substance to say or are you just going to be another hater?