Why does the believer in God's existence have the burden of proof?

[leibowde84]

If you think there's any possibility there is a God, you're not an atheist, you're an agnostic.

Where did you get that from?

 

[leibowde84]

So now you've changed your story, form atheism is synonymous to agnostic, to they are two different things, maybe we have learned something!!

I never claimed them to be synonymous terms. Only that they overlap and can sometimes be used to describe the same person's lack of belief.

 

[Fraleyight]

When did he say they were synonymous?? Lol.. He specifically said many times that agnosticism (lack of knowledge in god) overlaps with (theism) belief in god as well as (atheism) lack of belief in god.

 

[leibowde84]

Please don't put words in my mouth.

 

[Lyndon]

Oh brother, an agnostic by almost everyone's definition is neither Theist nor atheist.

 

[leibowde84]

Oh brother, an agnostic by almost everyone's definition is neither Theist or atheist.

That doesn't make sense, as gnosticism deals with knowledge not belief,

 

[leibowde84]

Oh brother, an agnostic by almost everyone's definition is neither Theist nor atheist.

My point is that when people identify as atheist, they usually merely mean that they refuse to believe due to lack of evidence.

 

[Lyndon]

Agnostic does not mean not gnostic, look it up.

 

[Robert William]

Why does the believer in God's existence have the burden of proof?

The problem is that the skeptic and/or atheist requires scientific evidence for God's existence. But what he or she fails to understands is that belief in God's existence is presented as a metaphysical belief, not as a scientific fact.

Scriptures tell me there is plenty of proof and that you are without excuse.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

 

[Fraleyight]

Agnostic does not mean not gnostic, look it up.

I am shocked that you do not understand the point being made to you in the thread.

Gnostic= " I have knowledge of gods existence"
Agnostic= " I do not have knowledge of gods existence"
Theist= "I believe in gods existence"
Atheist= "I do not believe in gods existence"

the first two are subsets of the second two. You are always going to be one of each.. ALWAYS, there is no way around this. Anything else is a logical contradiction. Saying you are gnostic or agnostic does not answer the atheist/theist question.

 

[Nakosis]

That's exactly what I meant, an agnostic on the other hand has no disbelief in the existence of God (skepticism yes), and atheist does.

How about saying they just choose not to take a side?

Certainly some atheists take a side and have their reasons for it. So an agnostic would also be an atheist since they also lack a belief in God.

An agnostic is an atheist who doesn't take sides. You wouldn't call them a believer or theist, whatever. So an Atheist can range anywhere from agnostic to anti-theist I think. I've even seen some people describe themselves as an agnostic atheist.

If you start leaning towards the theist side, I don't think you can consider that person and atheist anymore, right?

 

[Fraleyight]

Oh brother, an agnostic by almost everyone's definition is neither Theist nor atheist.

The definition you are using is a logical contradiction. I do not care how common it is. You can not "not believe" and "not disbelieve" at the same time.

 

[Fraleyight]

How about saying they just choose not to take a side?

Certainly some atheists take a side and have their reasons for it. So an agnostic would also be an atheist since they also lack a belief in God.

An agnostic is an atheist who doesn't take sides. You wouldn't call them a believer or theist, whatever. So an Atheist can range anywhere from agnostic to anti-theist I think. I've even seen some people describe themselves as an agnostic atheist.

If you start leaning towards the theist side, I don't think you can consider that person and atheist anymore, right?

If agnosticism is a claim to knowledge it is a subset of atheism/theism, not a version of atheism.

 

[outhouse]

An atheist believes there is no God

False you do not get to define anything. You don't have the credibility to define anything properly.


Atheism does not require belief

 

[jonathan180iq]

You just don't get it, do you?? An atheist believes there is no God, an agnostic has no strong beliefs one way or the other about God. How can that be identical, it makes no logical sense at all.

Your problem with understanding this comes from your limited acceptance of what the terms actually mean or imply. The argument that they're making is perfectly clear once you let go of this refusal to accept a broader definition.

 

[Nakosis]

You're not worth debating with, you've redefined agnosticism as atheism and expect all of us to go along for the ride, have fun with your beliefs, you're free to believe any nonsense you want to.

No, no, no.... I mean sorry, but no, no, no...

Well maybe, I don't know. An agnostic chooses not to take sides.

ag·nos·tic
aɡˈnästik/
noun

1. 1.
   a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God...

Basically not taking sides?

Not really being defined the same. Just the agnostic happens to be a type of atheist. That doesn't mean agnostic and atheist mean the same thing. Some atheists choose to take sides, that would mean they are not agnostic.

 

[Nakosis]

If agnosticism is a claim to knowledge it is a subset of atheism/theism, not a version of atheism.

But it is a claim to not having knowledge, Therefore choosing not taking a side because of a lack of knowledge. You can argue against what I'm saying it implies but It seems to me to be the opposite of what you think it means.

 

[leibowde84]

Scriptures tell me there is plenty of proof and that you are without excuse.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

You are assuming that the Bible is accurate and divinely inspired. It is pretty disrespectful to spew Bible verses when it is obvious that, if the Bible were accurate, we wouldn't be having this debate. You can't enter a debate about belief in the existence of God with the assumption that the Bible is accurate. It is employing nothing but circular reasoning.

 

[leibowde84]

No, no, no.... I mean sorry, but no, no, no...

Well maybe, I don't know. An agnostic chooses not to take sides.

ag·nos·tic
aɡˈnästik/
noun

1. 1.
   a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God...

Basically not taking sides?

Not really being defined the same. Just the agnostic happens to be a type of atheist. That doesn't mean agnostic and atheist mean the same thing. Some atheists choose to take sides, that would mean they are not agnostic.

Well-put.

 

[Lyndon]

So basically you atheists all get off by claiming anyone that has the slightest doubt if there is a God is by definition an atheist. OK so Atheists, by this definition are the majority and hence the most powerful force in the Universe, well done, end match.