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Why does it mention Abraham twice in two different parables if he isn't literally in heaven?

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Frank Goad

Well-Known Member
Why does it mention Abraham twice in two different parables if he isn't literally in heaven?Luke 13:22-30. and Luke 16:19-31.In Luke 13:22-30 it says people will see Abraham in the kingdom of God and themselves thrown out. And in Luke 16:19-31 that is just what happens!Can someone explain this?:)
 
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wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Frank Goad said:
Why does it mention Abraham twice in two different parables if he isn't literally in heaven?Luke 13:22-30. and Luke 16:19-31.In Luke 13:22-30 it says people will see Abraham in the kingdom of God and themselves thrown out. And in Luke 16:19-31 that is just what happens!Can someone explain this?:)
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Heaven does not appear until after the resurrection of Jesus and some other changes; Satan thrown from Heaven. The Jews of the Old Testament did not have a heaven and hell. So when Luke is quoting Jesus, when Jesus was still preaching, heaven and hell did yet not exist. Abraham was sleeping and would awaken from his sleep many generations later.

Both those quotes really have to do with being able to develop your mind; spirit, from either the outside or from the inside. If you had lots of money, you can hire others to do everything for you. You can create the illusion of being a master of everything that money can buy, while not knowing how to do anything, besides buy and delegate. Others will be impressed by your shiny shell and not notice how there is nothing inside, just an impressive shell they envy.

On the other hand, the poor person who has little, has to learn to do everything for themselves, even the simple things that money could buy. That need requires they develop from the inside, by trial and error and hard work; blessed are the poor. Born again was about developing the inner man; genuine change, and letting the outer man, that money can buy, die away; new suit or hair style, so there is real inner change and not store just bought outer change.

If I had plenty of money I could buy designer clothes to make me look rich and state of the art. If I have no money, I would need learn how to make my own clothes. Which takes more skill, but which will the mob gravitate towards? Narrow is the way and few people see it. If you develop from the inside, there is less need to make war to feed the dark inner hole. Historically, many go the rich tended to regress into debauchery since the inside was empty and needed new stimulus to feel. The path to the Kingdom of Heaven was though the inside; prayer, meditation and faith, not appealing to the outer mob to be seen or feared.
 
F

Frank Goad

Well-Known Member
wellwisher said:
Heaven does not appear until after the resurrection of Jesus and some other changes; Satan thrown from Heaven. The Jews of the Old Testament did not have a heaven and hell. So when Luke is quoting Jesus, when Jesus was still preaching, heaven and hell did yet not exist. Abraham was sleeping and would awaken from his sleep many generations later.

Both those quotes really have to do with being able to develop your mind; spirit, from either the outside or from the inside. If you had lots of money, you can hire others to do everything for you. You can create the illusion of being a master of everything that money can buy, while not knowing how to do anything, besides buy and delegate. Others will be impressed by your shiny shell and not notice how there is nothing inside, just an impressive shell they envy.

On the other hand, the poor person who has little, has to learn to do everything for themselves, even the simple things that money could buy. That need requires they develop from the inside, by trial and error and hard work; blessed are the poor. Born again was about developing the inner man; genuine change, and letting the outer man, that money can buy, die away; new suit or hair style, so there is real inner change and not store just bought outer change.

If I had plenty of money I could buy designer clothes to make me look rich and state of the art. If I have no money, I would need learn how to make my own clothes. Which takes more skill, but which will the mob gravitate towards? Narrow is the way and few people see it. If you develop from the inside, there is less need to make war to feed the dark inner hole. Historically, many go the rich tended to regress into debauchery since the inside was empty and needed new stimulus to feel. The path to the Kingdom of Heaven was though the inside; prayer, meditation and faith, not appealing to the outer mob to be seen or feared.
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Thanks for replying!:)
 
Brickjectivity

Brickjectivity

One
Staff member
Premium Member
Frank Goad said:
Why does it mention Abraham twice in two different parables if he isn't literally in heaven?Luke 13:22-30. and Luke 16:19-31.In Luke 13:22-30 it says people will see Abraham in the kingdom of God and themselves thrown out. And in Luke 16:19-31 that is just what happens!Can someone explain this?:)
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Unofficially these passages are evidence that Abraham could be the 'Father in heaven' that the gospels refer to. Abraham is a central figure, and the LORD promises to make Abraham's children be like the stars in the sky. There are no other fathers who could come close to being called the 'Father in heaven', but Abraham does come close -- very close. Abraham's titles also include 'Friend of God' and 'Father of many nations'. Additional evidence is the catholic tradition of praying to saints which protestants have mostly forgotten. (Many consider this practice to be idolatrous.) In this case Abraham is the first and greatest saint to be prayed to, hence Jesus prayer to the father in heaven might be the first instance of prayer to a saint recorded in the gospels. While many modern protestants don't recognize prayer to saints, it is a very old custom and may just go all the way back to the beginning of the church. This neatly explains the conundrum you have posed, too.
 
nPeace

nPeace

Veteran Member
Frank Goad said:
Why does it mention Abraham twice in two different parables if he isn't literally in heaven?Luke 13:22-30. and Luke 16:19-31.In Luke 13:22-30 it says people will see Abraham in the kingdom of God and themselves thrown out. And in Luke 16:19-31 that is just what happens!Can someone explain this?:)
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Frank Goad said:
Were is nPeace when you need them?:)
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Hey Frank. I hope you are well.
I see your questions, but I'm not sure if the answers are meaningful.
For example, suppose someone believes horses can fly, and you point out to them, that horses do not have wings, nor propellers, so that they can fly. The person says, to you, 'but I saw a horse on a mountain, which it cannot climb, so that means the horse must have flown there.'
Suppose you try to help the person to stick to the one fact that the horse needs wings to fly, therefore there must be another explanation for the horse being on the mountain, but the person insists on finding an answer that would support his belief that the horse can fly, what would you do in a case like that?
Would you not leave the person to believe that horses fly, if that's what the person desires to believe?

A parable is told, not as a literal event, but to illustrate something, isn it?
 
F

Frank Goad

Well-Known Member
nPeace said:
Hey Frank. I hope you are well.
I see your questions, but I'm not sure if the answers are meaningful.
For example, suppose someone believes horses can fly, and you point out to them, that horses do not have wings, nor propellers, so that they can fly. The person says, to you, 'but I saw a horse on a mountain, which it cannot climb, so that means the horse must have flown there.'
Suppose you try to help the person to stick to the one fact that the horse needs wings to fly, therefore there must be another explanation for the horse being on the mountain, but the person insists on finding an answer that would support his belief that the horse can fly, what would you do in a case like that?
Would you not leave the person to believe that horses fly, if that's what the person desires to believe?

A parable is told, not as a literal event, but to illustrate something, isn it?
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I had a friend say to me a parable isn't literal too.:)
 
F

Frank Goad

Well-Known Member
nPeace said:
This is a good example. What is a parable?
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www.merriam-webster.com

Definition of PARABLE

a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle; also : something (such as a news story or a series of real events) likened to a parable in providing an instructive example or lesson… See the full definition
www.merriam-webster.com www.merriam-webster.com
 
nPeace

nPeace

Veteran Member
Frank Goad said:
www.merriam-webster.com

Definition of PARABLE

a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle; also : something (such as a news story or a series of real events) likened to a parable in providing an instructive example or lesson… See the full definition
www.merriam-webster.com www.merriam-webster.com
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Right. So, do you believe that, or would you believe otherwise - it's a literal event?
 
nPeace

nPeace

Veteran Member
Frank Goad said:
I think this was a parable.Because of Mark 4:34.:)
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Well done. So Abraham isn't literally in heaven.
Neither Elijah. Mention of these individuals in an illustrative way represents something.
That would be the next thing to try to get an answer to. ;) Would you not agree?
 
nPeace

nPeace

Veteran Member
Frank Goad said:
Nonexistent.:)
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Hmmm. Well I wouldn't have put it so bluntly... Not that you are wrong, of course.
Abraham is no more. Of course, that does not mean Abraham is forgotten, does it?
God remembers Abraham. Jesus explained it...
Matthew 22
31 Regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, who said: 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob’? He is the God, not of the dead, but of the living.”

Not a trick question... ;) So, is that verse saying that Abraham is not dead?
 
Quagmire

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
It's My Birthday!
The King James version has the begger being carried to a place refered to as "Abraham's bosom":

"16:22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom."

Apparently, the Bosom of Abraham was believed by some Jews of jesus's time to be a literal abode of the righteous dead:

"Bosom of Abraham" refers to the place of comfort in the biblical Sheol (or Hades in the Greek Septuagint version of the Hebrew scriptures from around 200 BC,"

So while the parable may not have been intended to be taken literally, the setting is a reflection of what may have been a common belief about the afterlife in first century Judea.
 
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