Who's more racist... the religious or the non-religious?

[waitasec]

Well lets see Christianity says all men are created equal, and they have objective worth and value, and they fought against US slavery and others.

Evolution which is what you get without religion says:
"On the origin of species by means of natural selection or the preservation of favored races in the struggle for life."*

Favored Races

And evolution contains nothing in it to justify equality of any kind and has no way to establish the sanctity of life. But I am sure you are probably right. Ha Ha

not exclusively

how selective of you...naturally.

 

[1robin]

:spit:
which is why there are billions :sarcastic of different interpretations

So there is only one absolute truth.

 

[1robin]

not exclusively

how selective of you...naturally.

What is this junk. I can't read your mind, thank God. And Blechley park couldn't make sence out this mess. Once again incoherent. I am about to give up on your troll garbage.

 

[waitasec]

So there is only one absolute truth.

prove it

 

[waitasec]

What is this junk. I can't read your mind, thank God. And Blechley park couldn't make sence out this mess. Once again incoherent. I am about to give up on your troll garbage.

don't worry, i really didn't do that for you...

 

[beerisit]

Well lets see Christianity says all men are created equal, and they have objective worth and value, and they fought against US slavery and others.

Evolution which is what you get without religion says:
"On the origin of species by means of natural selection or the preservation of favored races in the struggle for life."*

Favored Races

And evolution contains nothing in it to justify equality of any kind and has no way to establish the sanctity of life. But I am sure you are probably right. Ha Ha

After all this time and all of the times it has been explained to you, you still don't have the foggiest notion of evolution. Simply amazing

 

[McBell]

After all this time and all of the times it has been explained to you, you still don't have the foggiest notion of evolution. Simply amazing

Not really.
There have been some on this very forum who have been at it for much longer than 1robin.

 

[waitasec]

Not really.
There have been some on this very forum who have been at it for much longer than 1robin.

a very sad truth

 

[A Troubled Man]

God's will is an absolute standard even if no one agreed what it was. However god's will in many cases is stated point blank in the bible. For example murdr is wrong. Theft is wrong.

The concept of murder and theft being morally wrong was known and in use long before the bible was written. They have nothing to do with your god.

A Godless system is completely insuffecient for the moral framework needed for society.

That couldn't be further from the truth or sillier in the extreme. Plenty of civilizations throughout history never heard of your bible and created moral frameworks for their societies. Show us one Christian based society where the prisons aren't overflowing with Christians.

 

[beerisit]

However god's will in many cases is stated point blank in the bible. Any aareas that aren't stated directly can easily be inferred from the narrative. For example murdr is wrong. Theft is wrong.

Unless such actions are perpetrated by the said arbiter of objective morality, in which case morality is subjective.

 

[1robin]

Unless such actions are perpetrated by the said arbiter of objective morality, in which case morality is subjective.

That doesn't even make sense. A violation of a standard is not evidence for non existance of a standard. Also an assertion is not evidence. What specifically are you referring to?

 

[1robin]

The concept of murder and theft being morally wrong was known and in use long before the bible was written. They have nothing to do with your god.

So what even if true? Since the bible claims that man is given a God given concience that is exactly what I would expect. Also the oral tradition for the bible goes back to prehistory and so your point is unprovable anyway.

That couldn't be further from the truth or sillier in the extreme. Plenty of civilizations throughout history never heard of your bible and created moral frameworks for their societies. Show us one Christian based society where the prisons aren't overflowing with Christians .

Talk about silly there are no Christian based governments except for maybe the Vatican. Since all men have a God given concience it makes sence they have a similar core morality. It actually makes far more sense given a God than if evolution produced it which it can't.

 

[1robin]

After all this time and all of the times it has been explained to you, you still don't have the foggiest notion of evolution. Simply amazing

That's because your explanations are wrong and sillly. So apparently even Darwin didn't understand it:"On the origin of species by means of natural selection or the preservation of favored races in the struggle for life."* Charles Darwin.

That's quite a system you got yourself when even the most famous evolutionist of all time doesn't have a clue.

 

[McBell]

That doesn't even make sense.

the 'arbitrator' of the absolute morality would be god.
Now since god violates his own absolute morality....

A violation of a standard is not evidence for non existance of a standard.

No one has said it is.

Also an assertion is not evidence.

agreed.
Even when it is you making the assertion.

What specifically are you referring to?

 

[McBell]

That's because your explanations are wrong and sillly.

Another assertion from you...

So apparently even Darwin didn't understand it:"On the origin of species by means of natural selection or the preservation of favored races in the struggle for life."* Charles Darwin.

You do understand that evolution has come a long ways since Darwin, right?
Why you think Darwin is some sort of be all end all of evolution is not only comical, but quite puzzling.

That's quite a system you got yourself when even the most famous evolutionist of all time doesn't have a clue.

Yet another assertion made by you.
Interesting how you are so full of that which you claim is not evidence....

Even more interesting is how you completely ignore anything you dislike and are overly proud of your own willful ignorance.

 

[A Troubled Man]

So what even if true? Since the bible claims that man is given a God given concience that is exactly what I would expect.

That might be relevant if indeed our conscience's were aligned with the bible, but they're not.

Also the oral tradition for the bible goes back to prehistory and so your point is unprovable anyway.

That only goes to show just how inaccurate the bible should be, ever heard of Chinese Whispers?

Since all men have a God given concience it makes sence they have a similar core morality.

The various religions don't teach the same "core morality" at all. They all have varying and often contradictory teachings.

It actually makes far more sense given a God than if evolution produced it which it can't.

That would make sense coming from one who is indoctrinated into a particular religion without knowing much more of other religions.

 

[Oryonder]

Whichever group has more white people. We all know how racist all white people are.

Now that I disagree with. Most Chinese and folks from India are actually proud of their racism.

It is part of their cultural upbringing. India for example has the Caste system (they claim publically to have dropped it but that is not what happens in reality).

You are born into your role and can never rise above it "The untouchables" are at the bottom of the barrel within Indian society. Folks who are not Indian all get lumped into this group.

 

[1robin]

That might be relevant if indeed our conscience's were aligned with the bible, but they're not.

This is a complicated subject. To put it shortly I believe virtually all humans have a god given concience however that concience was corrupted to a certain extent by the fall of man. It is still there it just doesn't function as efficiently as it was meant to. That being said the fact that virtual all societies believe murder, theft, rape, oppresion etc...... are wrong suggests there is some kind of universal moral concience in operation.

That only goes to show just how inaccurate the bible should be, ever heard of Chinese Whispers?

I was only speaking of the first five books of the 66 in the bible. You seem to think that whatever the characteristics the bible has are proof you can dismiss it. If it doesn't go back far enough then it's false if does go back that far well that means it's false. Heads you win tails the bible looses, Hardly a meaningful state of mind to evaluate God.

The various religions don't teach the same "core morality" at all. They all have varying and often contradictory teachings.

I didn't say the religions did. However all religions with well developed moral codes have similar cores of morality. You keep saying they have some differences. I never said they didn't just a similar core. For instance all of the top three religions in the world believe in one God as well as all the morals listed above plus many more.

That would make sense coming from one who is indoctrinated into a particular religion without knowing much more of other religions.

I have layed out my history several times and you can find it in these threads if you want but in short I was once as opposed to Christianity as a person can get so I am hardly a product of indoctrination. Even if I was your point makes no sence. You saying that if I have adopted a religion I can't possibly know much about evolution. That's like saying I build helicopters for a living so I couldn't possibly be good at golf. Unless you are some kind of geneticist, biologist, or chemist then I probably know as much or more than you about it. I had at least 5 classes in college that dealt with it plus I have a math degree with a physics minor which is very applicable to evolution. Evolution should not have produced what we have as moral realities today.

 

[A Troubled Man]

This is a complicated subject. To put it shortly I believe virtually all humans have a god given concience however that concience was corrupted to a certain extent by the fall of man. It is still there it just doesn't function as efficiently as it was meant to.

That being said the fact that virtual all societies believe murder, theft, rape, oppresion etc...... are wrong suggests there is some kind of universal moral concience in operation.

Actually, it suggests that humans can reason that murder, theft, rape, oppression are not acts they would want committed on them, hence they shouldn't commit them on others.

I was only speaking of the first five books of the 66 in the bible. You seem to think that whatever the characteristics the bible has are proof you can dismiss it. If it doesn't go back far enough then it's false if does go back that far well that means it's false. Heads you win tails the bible looses, Hardly a meaningful state of mind to evaluate God.

It has nothing to do with how far back the bible goes, it's all about how accurate it is based on "oral tradition"

I didn't say the religions did. However all religions with well developed moral codes have similar cores of morality. You keep saying they have some differences. I never said they didn't just a similar core. For instance all of the top three religions in the world believe in one God as well as all the morals listed above plus many more.

Do the top three religions believe in the very same god that exhibits exactly the same characteristics? Of course not.

I have layed out my history several times and you can find it in these threads if you want but in short I was once as opposed to Christianity as a person can get so I am hardly a product of indoctrination.

I have heard that from many believers, but I don't buy it. Accepting that one has been indoctrinated into their religion is not something believers will admit.

Even if I was your point makes no sence. You saying that if I have adopted a religion I can't possibly know much about evolution. That's like saying I build helicopters for a living so I couldn't possibly be good at golf. Unless you are some kind of geneticist, biologist, or chemist then I probably know as much or more than you about it. I had at least 5 classes in college that dealt with it plus I have a math degree with a physics minor which is very applicable to evolution. Evolution should not have produced what we have as moral realities today.

Then, I don't believe you when you say you've studied evolution. Math degrees have nothing to do with understanding evolution.

 

[1robin]

^Deleted Post^

Yeh me and several billion other people are nuts. Stateing what without doubt you do not know as a fact, is meaningless and reveals a bias.

Actually, it suggests that humans can reason that murder, theft, rape, oppression are not acts they would want committed on them, hence they shouldn't commit them on others.

It seems any position whatsoever is proof evolution develops morals and the bible can't. I said there is a common concience given by God and you said there isn't and that proves your point. I said it again in a more detailed way now you seem to accept it but say that it is evidence of evolutionary morals. Your faith is more rabid than the taliban. No matter the facts, even when they are two diametrically opposed ones, they always prove your point. How convenient. There is no escape from this fact, the best evolution can do is produce widely varying opinions none of which are more valid than the other. That is why God had to be appealed to, to justify inalienable rights.

It has nothing to do with how far back the bible goes, it's all about how accurate it is based on "oral tradition"

You do realize that the Hebrews had an entire class of people who did nothing but study and memorize oral tradition. A failure on their part was punishable by death. Accurate transmission was extremely important to those people. Regardless even if inaccurate that would only effect the first five book out of 66. The core doctrine would be unaffected.

Do the top three religions believe in the very same god that exhibits exactly the same characteristics? Of course not.

I really wish when you feel cornered you wouldn't make up a position that I never claimed and have actually stated as not my position to enable a counter point. I never said they are identicle, I said they have similar cores. For ex.... Murder, theft, rape, lieing, adultery, etc... are universally condemned.

I have heard that from many believers, but I don't buy it. Accepting that one has been indoctrinated into their religion is not something believers will admit.

This is my point. You have no information to base a decision on yet you choose the one that allows you to reject God. By doing so you are making a meaningless decision based on a faulty, biased premise.

Then, I don't believe you when you say you've studied evolution. Math degrees have nothing to do with understanding evolution.

Believe whatever you want to believe in order to maintain the illusion (you will anyway). As far as just mathematics is concerned Fred Hoyle might be suprised by the idea that mathematics doesn't apply to evolution, since he wrote a book on that very subject.
Mathematics of Evolution. (Fred Hoyle).
The Philosophical Implications of Mathematics: June 2005
Evolutionary Game Theory And The Mathematics Of Altruism
Amazon.com: 'Mathematics of Evolution' (9780966993400): Fred Hoyle: Books
New mathematics research proves there's plenty of time for evolution
All these are links that make it clear mathematics is very applicable in fact indespensable to the study of evolution. Since by not knowing that I must conclude you really don't have a grasp on it then I do not wish to discuss the subject of evolution any further except its application to morality. It is a precarious theory anyway without a bunch of innacurate claims. Besides that it is boring.