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Who were the Magi?

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
It's incredible and sometimes shocking how traditions and legends arise from a misinterpretation of a Biblical passage.
I think that mistranslations contributed to the birth of the legend of the three Wise Men, also known as the Magi or the Magi Kings in the Catholic tradition.

Let's analyze the incriminated passage, in Greek, Matthew 2:1
Τοῦ δὲ Ἰησοῦ γεννηθέντος ἐν Βηθλεὲμ τῆς Ἰουδαίας ἐν ἡμέραις Ἡρῴδου τοῦ βασιλέως, ἰδοὺ μάγοι ἀπὸ ἀνατολῶν παρεγένοντο εἰς Ἱεροσόλυμα 2 λέγοντες· ποῦ ἐστιν ὁ τεχθεὶς βασιλεὺς τῶν Ἰουδαίων; εἴδομεν γὰρ αὐτοῦ τὸν ἀστέρα ἐν τῇ ἀνατολῇ καὶ ἤλθομεν προσκυνῆσαι αὐτῷ.

The incriminated word is μάγοι and any historian will tell you that:
- they were certainly not kings.
- there were probably tens of them; not only three.
- they surely were Zoroastrians, coming from the East (so ancient Mesopotamia or Persia).
- they were astrologers (astrology and astronomy was one single science back then, invented and developped by the Mesopotamian civilizations).
- they were probably priests too (or some of them were).

So it dealt with Persian scientists who believed in the spiritual significance of the star of Bethlehem, that many identify with the astral conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn in 7 BC. Let's not forget that Zoroastrianism and Christianity share so many elements, like the monotheistic god, the notion of savior-godsend that saves mankind from evil and the universalism.


It's so interesting how the Catholic tradition completely changed the identity of these mysterious Biblical characters.

Just post whatever you like.
;)
and Merry Christmas, of course.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
It's incredible and sometimes shocking how traditions and legends arise from a misinterpretation of a Biblical passage.
I think that mistranslations contributed to the birth of the legend of the three Wise Men, also known as the Magi or the Magi Kings in the Catholic tradition.

Let's analyze the incriminated passage, in Greek, Matthew 2:1
Τοῦ δὲ Ἰησοῦ γεννηθέντος ἐν Βηθλεὲμ τῆς Ἰουδαίας ἐν ἡμέραις Ἡρῴδου τοῦ βασιλέως, ἰδοὺ μάγοι ἀπὸ ἀνατολῶν παρεγένοντο εἰς Ἱεροσόλυμα 2 λέγοντες· ποῦ ἐστιν ὁ τεχθεὶς βασιλεὺς τῶν Ἰουδαίων; εἴδομεν γὰρ αὐτοῦ τὸν ἀστέρα ἐν τῇ ἀνατολῇ καὶ ἤλθομεν προσκυνῆσαι αὐτῷ.

The incriminated word is μάγοι and any historian will tell you that:
- they were certainly not kings.
- there were probably tens of them; not only three.
- they surely were Zoroastrians, coming from the East (so ancient Mesopotamia or Persia).
- they were astrologers (astrology and astronomy was one single science back then, invented and developped by the Mesopotamian civilizations).
- they were probably priests too (or some of them were).

So it dealt with Persian scientists who believed in the spiritual significance of the star of Bethlehem, that many identify with the astral conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn in 7 BC. Let's not forget that Zoroastrianism and Christianity share so many elements, like the monotheistic god, the notion of savior-godsend that saves mankind from evil and the universalism.


It's so interesting how the Catholic tradition completely changed the identity of these mysterious Biblical characters.

Just post whatever you like.
;)
and Merry Christmas, of course.
The "three kings" were not "scientist. They were astrologist of the Zoroastrian religion which took heed of the conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn, which puts the birth date around 6 B.C., just before the death of Herod the Great, who put out the order to kill all the young less than 2 years old. The date of 25th of December is a pagan feast of Saturnalia, and the birth date of Sol Invictus/Mythra, the sun god, the god of Revelation 13, called the "dragon". Coins minted by Constantine, the "beast with two horns like a lamb" (Rev 13), after the battle of Milvian Bridge, often bore the image of Sol Invictus, his god, for which the beast, Julius Caesar, and his heads (subsequent Caesars), derived power, per Revelation 13:4. The image of the Zoroastrian god Mythra was an image used for Sol Invictus
url="true"] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithra[/URL]
 

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2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Saturnalia was a Roman festival held in honour of the god Saturn god of agriculture. Originally held on 17 December it slowly expanded to the 23 December. It was never held on 25 December.
Gift-giving and merrymaking were the main customs absorbed into the paganistic-Christian festival of Christmas, via the festival of Saturnalia. Giving presents and making merry (getting drunk and overeating) for a week were the hall marks of Saturnalia. The position of Saturn's festival in the Roman calendar led to his association with concepts of time, especially the temporal transition of the New Year. Now the merrymaking goes from the 25 Dec to 1 January.
 

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
It's incredible and sometimes shocking how traditions and legends arise from a misinterpretation of a Biblical passage.
I think that mistranslations contributed to the birth of the legend of the three Wise Men, also known as the Magi or the Magi Kings in the Catholic tradition.

Let's analyze the incriminated passage, in Greek, Matthew 2:1
Τοῦ δὲ Ἰησοῦ γεννηθέντος ἐν Βηθλεὲμ τῆς Ἰουδαίας ἐν ἡμέραις Ἡρῴδου τοῦ βασιλέως, ἰδοὺ μάγοι ἀπὸ ἀνατολῶν παρεγένοντο εἰς Ἱεροσόλυμα 2 λέγοντες· ποῦ ἐστιν ὁ τεχθεὶς βασιλεὺς τῶν Ἰουδαίων; εἴδομεν γὰρ αὐτοῦ τὸν ἀστέρα ἐν τῇ ἀνατολῇ καὶ ἤλθομεν προσκυνῆσαι αὐτῷ.

The incriminated word is μάγοι and any historian will tell you that:
- they were certainly not kings.
- there were probably tens of them; not only three.
- they surely were Zoroastrians, coming from the East (so ancient Mesopotamia or Persia).
- they were astrologers (astrology and astronomy was one single science back then, invented and developped by the Mesopotamian civilizations).
- they were probably priests too (or some of them were).

So it dealt with Persian scientists who believed in the spiritual significance of the star of Bethlehem, that many identify with the astral conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn in 7 BC. Let's not forget that Zoroastrianism and Christianity share so many elements, like the monotheistic god, the notion of savior-godsend that saves mankind from evil and the universalism.


It's so interesting how the Catholic tradition completely changed the identity of these mysterious Biblical characters.

Just post whatever you like.
;)
and Merry Christmas, of course.

The Magi were Present as representatives of the one True God adopted by Judaism .. Ahura Mazda the uncreated primordial God of Zoroastrianism .. the first monotheism .. and the roots of Judaic monotheism.

The Israelites were Pagan .. beleiving in and worshiping many Gods ... as we are told in the Bible and from History-Archaeology. no disagreement there .. Their National War God YHWH does well for awhile but then starts to lose the battle between the Son's of the Supreme One for supremacy over the earth.

YHWH takes a major hit from God Assur of the Assyrians ..losing the northern Kingdom .. but the death blow is from God Marduk of the Babylonians .. who destroyes the Place where Lord YHWH's name resides ..and that is it .. the God of Israel is dead and defeated ..

When the anointed one of God (Ahura Mazda) shows up and defeats the Babylonians .. the Jews turn to the God of the one whome they call their Messiah .. Ahura Mazda .. the Uncreated one. This is the first time monotheism is adopted in Judaism .. and the God of Judaism is God YHWH reborn -- a new God with the Traits of Ahura Mazda .. as opposed to an anthropomorphic God like before.

People of that time know of the distant relationship between "The Father" and Ahura Mazda and so it seems no coincidence that the Magi are present at the birth of the next annointed one of the Jews .. the next Messiah .. this time a Priest forever in the order of Melchi-Zedek.
 

Dave Watchman

Active Member
So it dealt with Persian scientists who believed in the spiritual significance of the star of Bethlehem, that many identify with the astral conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn in 7 BC. Let's not forget that Zoroastrianism and Christianity share so many elements, like the monotheistic god, the notion of savior-godsend that saves mankind from evil and the universalism.
I don't know? I think I saw the star of Bethlehem movie, I don't know about that one either.

I googled this from Wiki:

"Great conjunctions occur approximately every 20 years when Jupiter "overtakes" Saturn in its orbit. They are named "great" for being by far the rarest of the conjunctions between naked-eye planets.​

I read a guy who made a case for Jesus being born late October 4 BC. Don't know about that one either.

Based on the Passover count in 30 AD, I am very certain that Jesus was crucified on Friday, April 7 that year. That would have been in the middle of the 70th heptad which started in 27 AD, and counting from the Artaxerxes Decree in 457 BC. I don't know how old He was.

And this is where the price action makes for market commentary. The Magi were trading the charts, and trading the story as well. The only way they could have known WHEN to be looking for His Star in the east, was from realizing that the 7 and the 62 weeks were happening from Daniel 9. But why make that long and dangerous journey from the east?

A possible reason WHY they might have been unusually invested in that Daniel data is that they could have been descended from the magicians, the enchanters, the sorcerers, and the Chaldeans from Ancient Babylon whom Nebuchadnezzar threatened to kill if they couldn't figure out the dream from Daniel 2.

“The word from me is firm: if you do not make known to me the dream and its interpretation, you shall be torn limb from limb, and your houses shall be laid in ruins.​

But Daniel figured it out, and saved multiple men their lives. Their kids were probably grateful when they lived to hear the story..

Daniel 9 is the only place that spells out the timing for the coming of Messiah the Prince, based on just the going forth of a command to restore Jerusalem. Newton thought it was probably also applicable to the next coming of Christ. It's the primary way we would know when to be looking for His Star in the east, and the sign of the Son of Man.

It's so interesting how the Catholic tradition completely changed the identity of these mysterious Biblical characters.
Don't know about that one either.
Just post whatever you like.
;)
That's they way, I like it.
and Merry Christmas, of course.
Of course, And a happy new year.

God bless Us, Every One!
 
Gift-giving and merrymaking were the main customs absorbed into the paganistic-Christian festival of Christmas,

Gift giving wasn’t really a Christmas tradition until modern times so has nothing to do with the Romans, and Saturnalia gifts tended to be small trinkets like wax figures. Also the idea that people need to “absorb” the “pagan” idea that a celebratory holiday involves merrymaking is a bit tenuous to say the least.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Gift giving wasn’t really a Christmas tradition until modern times so has nothing to do with the Romans, and Saturnalia gifts tended to be small trinkets like wax figures. Also the idea that people need to “absorb” the “pagan” idea that a celebratory holiday involves merrymaking is a bit tenuous to say the least.
Bravo.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
It's incredible and sometimes shocking how traditions and legends arise from a misinterpretation of a Biblical passage.
I think that mistranslations contributed to the birth of the legend of the three Wise Men, also known as the Magi or the Magi Kings in the Catholic tradition.

Let's analyze the incriminated passage, in Greek, Matthew 2:1
Τοῦ δὲ Ἰησοῦ γεννηθέντος ἐν Βηθλεὲμ τῆς Ἰουδαίας ἐν ἡμέραις Ἡρῴδου τοῦ βασιλέως, ἰδοὺ μάγοι ἀπὸ ἀνατολῶν παρεγένοντο εἰς Ἱεροσόλυμα 2 λέγοντες· ποῦ ἐστιν ὁ τεχθεὶς βασιλεὺς τῶν Ἰουδαίων; εἴδομεν γὰρ αὐτοῦ τὸν ἀστέρα ἐν τῇ ἀνατολῇ καὶ ἤλθομεν προσκυνῆσαι αὐτῷ.

The incriminated word is μάγοι and any historian will tell you that:
- they were certainly not kings.
- there were probably tens of them; not only three.
- they surely were Zoroastrians, coming from the East (so ancient Mesopotamia or Persia).
- they were astrologers (astrology and astronomy was one single science back then, invented and developped by the Mesopotamian civilizations).
- they were probably priests too (or some of them were).

So it dealt with Persian scientists who believed in the spiritual significance of the star of Bethlehem, that many identify with the astral conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn in 7 BC. Let's not forget that Zoroastrianism and Christianity share so many elements, like the monotheistic god, the notion of savior-godsend that saves mankind from evil and the universalism.


It's so interesting how the Catholic tradition completely changed the identity of these mysterious Biblical characters.

Just post whatever you like.
;)
and Merry Christmas, of course.
Or, and this is more likely, the are just fictional characters of the nativity myth in Matthew. Jesus was probably born in Nazareth.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Or, and this is more likely, the are just fictional characters of the nativity myth in Matthew. Jesus was probably born in Nazareth.
If you analyze the Gospels with the meter of the historian, you can come to the conclusion that the myth of Nativity was formulated after Jesus' death on the Cross. On the basis of the spiritual connection between Zoroastrianism and Christian theology.
A clear reference meant to point out that Zoroastrians somehow recognized Jesus as the savior (sent by Ahura Mazda).
The Magoi were the representatives of the religion.

If you read the apocrypha you will find so many contradictions about these Magoi.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Gift giving wasn’t really a Christmas tradition until modern times so has nothing to do with the Romans, and Saturnalia gifts tended to be small trinkets like wax figures. Also the idea that people need to “absorb” the “pagan” idea that a celebratory holiday involves merrymaking is a bit tenuous to say the least.
"Eating and drinking", "merrymaking", is a sign of the "end times", "the coming of the son of man" (Mt 24:37-38). The date of 25 December was the birthdate of the pagan god Sol Invictus/Mithras/Tammuz. Christmas tree origins date back to the myth of Nimrod, whose birthdate is 25 December, whereas he is resurrected every year in the form of his son Tammuz. I do not consider "modern times" as regards 336 CE, just after the Roman emperor established the false basis doctrine of the Trinity in 325 A.D.. As for "wax figures", or any figures, that would simply be idolatry, per the 2nd commandment.

As Christianity became increasingly widespread in the Roman lands, the custom of gift-giving occurred on New Year's Day.[5] Around 336 CE, the date December 25 appears to have become established as the day of Jesus's birth, and the tradition of gift-giving was tied to the story of the Biblical Magi giving gifts to baby Jesus;[6][7] together with another story, that of Saint Nicholas, a fourth-century Christian bishop and gift-giver, it slowly became a part of Christmas celebrations in countries such as the United Kingdom; in other Christian countries, the practice of gift-giving occurs early in Advent, on Saint Nicholas Day.[5][4]
 

Ajax

Active Member
The description of miracles and omens during the birth of Jesus can be compared with stories about the birth of Augustus (63 BC). Connecting a birth with the first appearance of a star was common in those times. (bear in mind that the gospels, especially the one according to Matthew, were written after 70 AD)
.
"The god Apollo was said to have conceived with Augustus' mother and there was a "public portent" indicating that a king of Rome would soon be born." "The god Apollo was said to have impregnated the mother of Augustus and there was a 'public omen' indicating that the king of Rome would soon be born." (Suetonius, C. Tranquillus,, 94., "The Divine Augustus", The Lives of the Twelve Caesars).
Magicians and astronomical events have been linked in common knowledge since the visit of a delegation of magicians to Rome during a spectacular appearance of Halley's comet in AD 66. This delegation was headed by the king Tiridates of Armenia, who also came to have his title confirmed by the emperor Nero, bringing gifts.

The historian Dion Cassius wrote that "King Tiridates (and the Magi) did not return to Armenia by the same route he had followed to go to Rome". Matthew 2:12 "... they departed for their country by another way".

The exact text of Dion Cassius: "This caused Tiridates both to admire him and to despise the emperor more than ever. 7 The king did not return by the route that he had followed in coming, — through Illyricum and north of the Ionian Sea, — but instead he sailed from Brundisium to Dyrrachium." Cassius Dio — Epitome of Book 62
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Gift-giving and merrymaking were the main customs absorbed into the paganistic-Christian festival of Christmas, via the festival of Saturnalia. Giving presents and making merry (getting drunk and overeating) for a week were the hall marks of Saturnalia. The position of Saturn's festival in the Roman calendar led to his association with concepts of time, especially the temporal transition of the New Year. Now the merrymaking goes from the 25 Dec to 1 January.

A bit late i but...
I can see no mention of 25th December in your link, only 17th to 33rd December,

See also

Saturnales — Wikipédia

But yes,i believe it was christian custom to usurp pagan festivals to gain more membership, join our club and you can still have you party, but on 25th...
 
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Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
It's incredible and sometimes shocking how traditions and legends arise from a misinterpretation of a Biblical passage.
I think that mistranslations contributed to the birth of the legend of the three Wise Men, also known as the Magi or the Magi Kings in the Catholic tradition.

Let's analyze the incriminated passage, in Greek, Matthew 2:1
Τοῦ δὲ Ἰησοῦ γεννηθέντος ἐν Βηθλεὲμ τῆς Ἰουδαίας ἐν ἡμέραις Ἡρῴδου τοῦ βασιλέως, ἰδοὺ μάγοι ἀπὸ ἀνατολῶν παρεγένοντο εἰς Ἱεροσόλυμα 2 λέγοντες· ποῦ ἐστιν ὁ τεχθεὶς βασιλεὺς τῶν Ἰουδαίων; εἴδομεν γὰρ αὐτοῦ τὸν ἀστέρα ἐν τῇ ἀνατολῇ καὶ ἤλθομεν προσκυνῆσαι αὐτῷ.

The incriminated word is μάγοι and any historian will tell you that:
- they were certainly not kings.
- there were probably tens of them; not only three.
- they surely were Zoroastrians, coming from the East (so ancient Mesopotamia or Persia).
- they were astrologers (astrology and astronomy was one single science back then, invented and developped by the Mesopotamian civilizations).
- they were probably priests too (or some of them were).

So it dealt with Persian scientists who believed in the spiritual significance of the star of Bethlehem, that many identify with the astral conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn in 7 BC. Let's not forget that Zoroastrianism and Christianity share so many elements, like the monotheistic god, the notion of savior-godsend that saves mankind from evil and the universalism.


It's so interesting how the Catholic tradition completely changed the identity of these mysterious Biblical characters.

Just post whatever you like.
;)
and Merry Christmas, of course.
Matthew 2:2

2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.


The Mages/Wise Men are True Seekers of Messiah/Christ. The Wise Men/Mages Want To Know Where Messiah/Christ Is To Worship him. You can only Worship what you Accept is Greater than yourself.
 

Ajax

Active Member
Matthew 2:2

2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.


The Mages/Wise Men are True Seekers of Messiah/Christ. The Wise Men/Mages Want To Know Where Messiah/Christ Is To Worship him. You can only Worship what you Accept is Greater than yourself.
There were no Magi/wise men who came to see Jesus. This is a fantasy of the author of Matthew. No other gospel author has written about this. You can not follow a star and stars don't come to a rest over a place. Plus the author had copied the writings of Dio Cassius. See message #12.
The author wanted to justify his bizarre and untrue stories of the Slaughter of the Innocent and the subsequent story of Jesus traveling to Egypt, to support his wrong theory that everything about Jesus was prophecized in OT.
 

Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
There were no Magi/wise men who came to see Jesus. This is a fantasy of the author of Matthew. No other gospel author has written about this. You can not follow a star and stars don't come to a rest over a place. Plus the author had copied the writings of Dio Cassius. See message #12.
The author wanted to justify his bizarre and untrue stories of the Slaughter of the Innocent and the subsequent story of Jesus traveling to Egypt, to support his wrong theory that everything about Jesus was prophecized in OT.
@Ajax, What type of Christian are you that doesn't believe what is Written in the Holy Scriptures/Bible?
 

Ajax

Active Member
@Ajax, What type of Christian are you that doesn't believe what is Written in the Holy Scriptures/Bible?
I was an Eastern Orthodox Christian, until I decided to study the Bible for 4 years. I freaked out and have become almost an agnostic. Since then I have done my own unbiased search. There may be a God and Jesus, but the Bible contains so many lies, falsehoods and contradictions that in no way can be taken seriously by me.

1) So Joseph got up and took the Child and His mother while it was still night, and left for Egypt......This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, “Out of Egypt have I called my son.” (Matthew 2:14)
2) When they had performed everything according to the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee, to their own city of Nazareth. (Luke 2:39)

Matthew (as Mark does to a lesser extent), twists the scriptures and tries all the time to find prophecies for Jesus which actually do not exist. Hosea 11:1 is not predictive but retrospective. God looks back on how he showed his love to the people of Israel by calling them out of Egypt at the time of the exodus.
So in order to justify the trip to Egypt and present it as another prophecy with a view to tie together the Torah and Jesus (in order to proselytize Jews), he invented the Magi (from Dio Cassius writings) and the Slaughter of the Innocent.

Luke's gospel on the other hand shows no worries whatsoever about Jesus being killed by Herod together with other newborns.:)

Thomas Paine: Age of Reason
 
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Ebionite

Well-Known Member
There were no Magi/wise men who came to see Jesus. This is a fantasy of the author of Matthew. No other gospel author has written about this. You can not follow a star and stars don't come to a rest over a place.
Michael Molnar's astrological solution overcomes the problem of following the start and the star resting.

Matthew reports that the Star tells the astrologers about the date, place, character, and future of the birth of a child. That is, the Star tells the astrologers about the birth of a very great king to be born in Judea on some date, and that is exactly what a natal horoscope gives. It seems to be past coincidence that the Star in Matthew tells the ancient astrologers exactly what a natal horoscope tells to ancient astrologers

Astronomical and Historical Evaluation of Molnar's Solution, Bradley E. Schaefer
 

Ajax

Active Member
Michael Molnar's astrological solution overcomes the problem of following the start and the star resting.
:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:
"The god Apollo was said to have conceived with Augustus' mother and there was a "public portent" indicating that a king of Rome would soon be born."
"The god Apollo was said to have impregnated the mother of Augustus and there was a 'public omen' indicating that the king of Rome would soon be born."
(Suetonius, C. Tranquillus,, 94., "The Divine Augustus", The Lives of the Twelve Caesars).

Magicians and astronomical events have been linked in common knowledge since the visit of a delegation of magicians to Rome during a spectacular appearance of Halley's comet in AD 66.
 
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