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Who sold Joseph?

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
As this shabbat's parasha is Vayeshev with, amongst other topics, the selling of Joseph by his brothers into slavery, the question arises: What exactly went on at the time? Who did the brothers sell him to, and who sold him to Potiphar?

"And they sat down to eat bread; and they lifted up their eyes and looked, and, behold, a caravan of Ishmaelites came from Gilead, with their camels bearing spicery and balm and ladanum, going to carry it down to Egypt...Come, and let us sell him to the Ishmaelites, and let not our hand be upon him; for he is our brother, our flesh.' And his brethren hearkened unto him. And there passed by Midianites, merchantmen; and they drew and lifted up Joseph out of the pit, and sold Joseph to the Ishmaelites for twenty shekels of silver. And they brought Joseph into Egypt...And the Midianites sold him into Egypt unto Potiphar, an officer of Pharaoh's, the captain of the guard...And Joseph was brought down to Egypt; and Potiphar, an officer of Pharaoh's, the captain of the guard, an Egyptian, bought him of the hand of the Ishmaelites, that had brought him down thither.

It's unclear from the verses whether Joseph was sold by the brothers to the Ishmaelites or the Midianites, nor which of these people sold him to Potiphar. Moreover, this translation (Machon Mamre) appears to translate the Hebrew "מדנים" - Medanim - as Midianites - "מדיינים", though Biblically Medan and Midyan were two different brothers: "And Abraham took another wife, and her name was Keturah. And she bore him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah."

I heard today a shiur where a number of explanations were brought. Feel free to add more.

The Maharal in Gur Aryeh brings a few answers:
1. The Ibn Ezra says that the Ishmaelites and the Midianites were one and the same, based on a verse that speaks about the Midianites but says: "And Gideon said unto them: 'I would make a request of you, that ye would give me every man the ear-rings of his spoil.'--For they had golden ear-rings, because they were Ishmaelites." (Judges 8:24)
This, however, does not explain the issue with the Medanim.

2. The Ramban (Nachmanides) says that the Ibn Ezra's answer is problematic because clearly the Ishmaelite reference in Judges is speaking about the "Bnei Kedem" that came with the Midianites to attack Israel. Therefore Ramban explains that its must be that these were two separate groups; the Ishmaelites bought him from the brothers and sold him to the Midianites who then sold him to Potiphar.
This again doesn't explain the issue with the Medanim.
Moreover, the Maharal says that that the problem with this explanation is that it doesn't explain the final verse, in which Joseph is sold to Potiphar by the Ishmaelites.

3. There are those that explain that Joseph was sold by the Ishamaelites to the Midianites and the Midianites tried to sell him to Potiphar, but he refused because he was suspicious that Joseph may have been kidnapped (the assumption being that something about Joseph seemed suspicious - maybe he didn't look like the average slave, the fact that he was sold by himself and not as part of a group, etc), so the Midianites sold him back to the Ishmaelites to prove that it's okay to sell him, and the Ishmaelites in turn sold him to Potiphar.
But about this, the Maharal says that this explanation lacks basis, because why would the Torah need to tell us all of this?

4. Therefore, the Maharal says, the Ibn Ezra's explanation makes more sense, and builds upon it: The brothers sat down to eat, and from afar saw what they thought were a group of Ishmaelites. In reality, the Torah explains to us that these were actually Midianites. Perhaps they dressed like Ishmaelites. Then the Torah goes back to the brothers' view, where they think they're selling him to Ishmaelites, when in reality, he's being sold to the Midianites, as further explained by the Torah. Finally, the Midianites sell him to Potiphar, but Potiphar, too, thinks that he's buying his new slave from a group of Ishmaelites.

5. Finally, the Maharal brings Rashi who explains that the Midianites were a small group within the caravan of Ishmaelites, to at times the sale was named after the larger group, though ultimately the buyers were the smaller group of Midianites.

The Rashbam brings his own interesting answer:
The brothers tossed Joseph into the hole, and sat down to eat away from the hole (possibly due to Joseph's yelling). As they were originally planning to kill him, they saw a caravan of Ishmaelites in the distance and thought to sell him to them. What they didn't know was that another group of Midianites was coming from another direction, and came upon Joseph. They pulled him out of the hole without the brothers' knowledge and took him prisoner. It seems that they were now aware that they had a kidnapped prisoner which was problematic (as per the no. 3 explanation in the Maharal), they chose to sell him to the passing Ishmaelites. From here, says the Rashbam, Joseph was sold to Egypt. And he explains that Medan, Midyan and Yishmael were brothers, and that the Medanim and Ishmaelites were one people.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
The story of Yosaif's sale is discussed in Midrash Says: Book of Beraishis Page 355. It says Yehuda proposed the transaction, and the brothers "honored his words"

There are two citations that support this.

The citations are: תפארת ציון : פד , טו
 
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Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm looking at Midrash Says... It says Yehuda proposed the transaction, and the brothers "honored his words"

There are two citations that support this.

The citations are: תפארמ ציון : פד , טו
Which midrash is this?
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Which midrash is this?

This is the source: תפארת ציון : פד , טו

Looks like it is coming from a commentary on the Midrash Rabbah.

The citation in "Midrash Says" directs the reader to Tiferes Zion. I'm not familiar with it, but according to wikipedia it was authored by Rabbi Yitzchok Zev Goldberg.

Benzion Yadler - Wikipedia

"
Ben Tzion Goldberg-Yadler was born in Jerusalem to Rabbi Yitzchok Zev Goldberg. Rabbi Yitzchok Zev was originally from the town of Yadel, a suburb of Vilna. He authored the work Tiferet Zion, a commentary on Midrash Rabbah."

Edit: I typo'd the Hebrew when I originally posted this reply... I fixed it now. Sorry for the confusion.
 
Last edited:

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
@Harel13 , Confirmed... the source is R. Yitzchak Z'ev Yadler (OBM).

Here's the description of the "Midrash Says" series that is provided inside the slipcover of the book. ( emphasis mine )

"
The Midrash Says:

Following the order of the weekly Torah-readings, this volume presents a lively narrative of the Book of Beraishis. It is compiled from material found both in the aggados of the Talmud and in the Midrashim. In addition to the major Midrashim, Rabba, and Tanchuma, this composition includes others from rare Midrashic sources which are being made available in english for the first time.

This book does not constitute a translation, but rather an adaption of the Midrashim. the author's goal was to capture the spirit behind the Midrashim and present the ideas in a meaningful way, as explained in classic commentaries of the Talmud and Midrash. A great part of its philosophy was drawn down from the profound 18 volume commentary on Midrash Rabbah, "Tiferes Tzion" written by the renowned Jerusalem scholar R. Yitzchak Z'ev Yadler ( 1843-1917 ).
"
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Nahum Sarna notes, in part:

Ibn Ezra identifies the Ishmaelites with the Midianites on the basis of Judges 8:24, which relates that Midianites possessed golden earrings "because they were "Ishmaelites." This passage suggests that the term "Ishmaelite" was used as an epithet for "nomadic traders" rather than in an ethnic sense" "Midianite," o the other hand, indicates a specific ethnic affiliation. Even if the two names are indicative of originally distinct narrative strands that have been interwoven, it must have been the close connection Ishmael and Midian in biblical tradition -- both being offspring of Abraham (25:1- 2,12) -- that led to their fusion.

The fact that all those who had a hand in the sale of Joseph into foreign slavery were his own kinfolk serves to heighten the tragedy.

- The JPS Torah Commentary: Genesis​
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
The fact that all those who had a hand in the sale of Joseph into foreign slavery were his own kinfolk serves to heighten the tragedy.
I thought of this point earlier today. Yeah, if just makes the story sound sadder.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
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Jake1001

Computer Simulator
As this shabbat's parasha is Vayeshev with, amongst other topics, the selling of Joseph by his brothers into slavery, the question arises: What exactly went on at the time? Who did the brothers sell him to, and who sold him to Potiphar?

"And they sat down to eat bread; and they lifted up their eyes and looked, and, behold, a caravan of Ishmaelites came from Gilead, with their camels bearing spicery and balm and ladanum, going to carry it down to Egypt...Come, and let us sell him to the Ishmaelites, and let not our hand be upon him; for he is our brother, our flesh.' And his brethren hearkened unto him. And there passed by Midianites, merchantmen; and they drew and lifted up Joseph out of the pit, and sold Joseph to the Ishmaelites for twenty shekels of silver. And they brought Joseph into Egypt...And the Midianites sold him into Egypt unto Potiphar, an officer of Pharaoh's, the captain of the guard...And Joseph was brought down to Egypt; and Potiphar, an officer of Pharaoh's, the captain of the guard, an Egyptian, bought him of the hand of the Ishmaelites, that had brought him down thither.

It's unclear from the verses whether Joseph was sold by the brothers to the Ishmaelites or the Midianites, nor which of these people sold him to Potiphar. Moreover, this translation (Machon Mamre) appears to translate the Hebrew "מדנים" - Medanim - as Midianites - "מדיינים", though Biblically Medan and Midyan were two different brothers: "And Abraham took another wife, and her name was Keturah. And she bore him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah."

I heard today a shiur where a number of explanations were brought. Feel free to add more.

The Maharal in Gur Aryeh brings a few answers:
1. The Ibn Ezra says that the Ishmaelites and the Midianites were one and the same, based on a verse that speaks about the Midianites but says: "And Gideon said unto them: 'I would make a request of you, that ye would give me every man the ear-rings of his spoil.'--For they had golden ear-rings, because they were Ishmaelites." (Judges 8:24)
This, however, does not explain the issue with the Medanim.

2. The Ramban (Nachmanides) says that the Ibn Ezra's answer is problematic because clearly the Ishmaelite reference in Judges is speaking about the "Bnei Kedem" that came with the Midianites to attack Israel. Therefore Ramban explains that its must be that these were two separate groups; the Ishmaelites bought him from the brothers and sold him to the Midianites who then sold him to Potiphar.
This again doesn't explain the issue with the Medanim.
Moreover, the Maharal says that that the problem with this explanation is that it doesn't explain the final verse, in which Joseph is sold to Potiphar by the Ishmaelites.

3. There are those that explain that Joseph was sold by the Ishamaelites to the Midianites and the Midianites tried to sell him to Potiphar, but he refused because he was suspicious that Joseph may have been kidnapped (the assumption being that something about Joseph seemed suspicious - maybe he didn't look like the average slave, the fact that he was sold by himself and not as part of a group, etc), so the Midianites sold him back to the Ishmaelites to prove that it's okay to sell him, and the Ishmaelites in turn sold him to Potiphar.
But about this, the Maharal says that this explanation lacks basis, because why would the Torah need to tell us all of this?

4. Therefore, the Maharal says, the Ibn Ezra's explanation makes more sense, and builds upon it: The brothers sat down to eat, and from afar saw what they thought were a group of Ishmaelites. In reality, the Torah explains to us that these were actually Midianites. Perhaps they dressed like Ishmaelites. Then the Torah goes back to the brothers' view, where they think they're selling him to Ishmaelites, when in reality, he's being sold to the Midianites, as further explained by the Torah. Finally, the Midianites sell him to Potiphar, but Potiphar, too, thinks that he's buying his new slave from a group of Ishmaelites.

5. Finally, the Maharal brings Rashi who explains that the Midianites were a small group within the caravan of Ishmaelites, to at times the sale was named after the larger group, though ultimately the buyers were the smaller group of Midianites.

The Rashbam brings his own interesting answer:
The brothers tossed Joseph into the hole, and sat down to eat away from the hole (possibly due to Joseph's yelling). As they were originally planning to kill him, they saw a caravan of Ishmaelites in the distance and thought to sell him to them. What they didn't know was that another group of Midianites was coming from another direction, and came upon Joseph. They pulled him out of the hole without the brothers' knowledge and took him prisoner. It seems that they were now aware that they had a kidnapped prisoner which was problematic (as per the no. 3 explanation in the Maharal), they chose to sell him to the passing Ishmaelites. From here, says the Rashbam, Joseph was sold to Egypt. And he explains that Medan, Midyan and Yishmael were brothers, and that the Medanim and Ishmaelites were one people.
This is sooo long and I don’t even know the question, but I’ll try. Who cares Midianite, Ishmaelite, Manhattanite ! Why are we making a nachas out of a molehill? I say give Joseph to the Egyptians, we’ll get him back anyway !! RabbiO, why didn’t he mess with the Pharoahs wife ? Was she a good looking chick ?
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
RabbiO, why didn’t he mess with the Pharoahs wife ? Was she a good looking chick ?
Hi Jake1001: This is the best way to ask RabbiO a question. It needs the @sign first... like this... ahem...

@RabbiO , @Jake1001 has a question for you: he is responding to the OP:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is sooo long and I don’t even know the question, but I’ll try. Who cares Midianite, Ishmaelite, Manhattanite ! Why are we making a nachas out of a molehill? I say give Joseph to the Egyptians, we’ll get him back anyway !! @RabbiO, why didn’t he mess with the Pharoahs wife ? Was she a good looking chick ?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
This is sooo long and I don’t even know the question, but I’ll try. Who cares Midianite, Ishmaelite, Manhattanite ! Why are we making a nachas out of a molehill? I say give Joseph to the Egyptians, we’ll get him back anyway !! RabbiO, why didn’t he mess with the Pharoahs wife ? Was she a good looking chick ?
You know, you are more than welcome to ignore the thread rather than mocking the Torah.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Note to @Jake1001:

Please note the difference in the question you asked without the @sign, and then the re-written version that I sent.

Here they are side by side for comparison, the differences are in a red box and a green box.

upload_2020-7-7_7-45-31.png


Compared to this:

upload_2020-7-7_7-56-14.png
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
You're welcome to do so. I view ...
somewhat differently, although perhaps I should have said trivializing rather than mocking.

Here's my point of view:

The story does include the details that Joseph was tempted sexually. I think the text ( maybe Midrash? ) describes him running away from her, and she rips his clothes off of him while he is trying to run away? If he was not tempted at all, he would have stood his ground, not run. This shows he was indeed tempted and tempted in a very deep manner.

IMO, this part of the story is important because it demonstrates Joseph's **sobriety**. This Foundation ;) of sobriety was granted to him when he was named. It didn't blossom until he was thrown in the pit, not once, but twice. But once he had mastered it, he was able to use this sobriety to do amazing things. Interpret dreams, save the world from famine, and even to trigger real T'shuvah in the hearts, minds, and souls of his brothers.

From my perspective, each and every time Joseph is acting as the Hero in the story, he is channeling his thought, speech, and action thru the garment of sobriety.

That's why it's important to point out that Pharaoh's wife was so dang sexy. ( forgive me ). It's something every adult ( excluding asexuals ) can relate to. The story can easily become a teaching/morality story about the benefits of cultivating sobriety. But to do that, Pharaohs wife needs to be irresistible or else the moral lesson is undermined.
 

Jake1001

Computer Simulator
Here's my point of view:

The story does include the details that Joseph was tempted sexually. I think the text ( maybe Midrash? ) describes him running away from her, and she rips his clothes off of him while he is trying to run away? If he was not tempted at all, he would have stood his ground, not run. This shows he was indeed tempted and tempted in a very deep manner.

IMO, this part of the story is important because it demonstrates Joseph's **sobriety**. This Foundation ;) of sobriety was granted to him when he was named. It didn't blossom until he was thrown in the pit, not once, but twice. But once he had mastered it, he was able to use this sobriety to do amazing things. Interpret dreams, save the world from famine, and even to trigger real T'shuvah in the hearts, minds, and souls of his brothers.

From my perspective, each and every time Joseph is acting as the Hero in the story, he is channeling his thought, speech, and action thru the garment of sobriety.

That's why it's important to point out that Pharaoh's wife was so dang sexy. ( forgive me ). It's something every adult ( excluding asexuals ) can relate to. The story can easily become a teaching/morality story about the benefits of cultivating sobriety. But to do that, Pharaohs wife needs to be irresistible or else the moral lesson is undermined.
This is a reasonable hypothesis, but whoever wrote this part of the Genesis (was it K. Josiah) could have spiced things up a little with some racey parts. It would have increased the number of editions sold. Artscrolls could have gone on Nasdaq !!!
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
This is a reasonable hypothesis, but whoever wrote this part of the Genesis (was it K. Josiah) could have spiced things up a little with some racey parts. It would have increased the number of editions sold. Artscrolls could have gone on Nasdaq !!!
I'll be sure to pass on your comments to the editing dept. :rolleyes::p
 
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