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Featured Who is the one given as a covenant for the people in Isaiah 49

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by whirlingmerc, Nov 10, 2019.

  1. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I t is Jesus as Is. 49:6 says " I will make you as a light for the nations,
    that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth."

    This prophecy has been fulfilled in Jesus.
     
  2. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    So are you saying that Isreal comes out of a womb? Jesus certainly did.

    Isa. 49:1 The LORD called me from the womb,
    from the body of my mother he named my name.

    I believe Jesus was named while still in the womb by God.
     
    #22 Muffled, Nov 11, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
  3. Rival

    Rival Ankh, Wedja, Seneb
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    So was the prophet who spoke this. It was Isaiah. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who didn't come from a womb.
     
  4. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    So I believe you should show me the passage where Isaiah actually acted as a light to the gentiles and spread the word to the ends of the earth.
     
  5. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe the nation of Israel didn't.
     
  6. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    Your missing the point. "From the womb" is a saying. It was "like" they were from the womb because of what they meant to God. Israel was God's children. God also calls them his first born too in the OT. His savor, their God, etc.....
     
  7. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe there are some problems with this view. First of all a trio is a trinity but I doubt that they were ordained to sing together. No doubt the RCC has their version of the Trinity that they believe in but I view it as not an accurate understanding of the Biblical concept.
     
  8. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe you have to stretch the truth a long way to get what you wish. What you don't get is the truth.
     
  9. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    It seems problematic to say in Isaiah 49 you have been given in the singular for the people plural
    This is a similar difficulty with Isaiah 53

    Although in the book of Acts it could be argued it is Christ and the Church in Christ as that's how Peter applies Isaiah 49:6 there.

    How might the singular servant in Isaiah 40-53 (of the servant song) contrast with the plural servants in Isiah 54 - 66 (of the servants songs). The singular is deliberate.
     
  10. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    In Acts that verse is also used of the church in Christ
    Acts 13:47 New International Version (NIV)
    47 For this is what the Lord has commanded us:
    “‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles, may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

    note the word 'us' regarding the church (which is in Christ)
    so maybe it is true Israel, the church which is in Christ
     
  11. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    It's not physical Israel

    And now the Lord says—
    he who formed me in the womb to be his servant
    to bring Jacob back to him
    and gather Israel to himself,


    this is someone who will redeem Jacob not merely Jacob
    The church in Christ fits
    It's true Israel
     
  12. Rival

    Rival Ankh, Wedja, Seneb
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    Israel is often referred to in the singular; this is all throughout the prophets; just as Jerusalem is referred to as 'she'.
     
  13. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
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    What verse? I think it's Jesus Christ throughout.
     
  14. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein Caritas Christi Urget Nos
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    You are aware that Christianity is much larger than Roman Catholicism and whatever minority flavor of fundie Evangelicalism you subscribe to, right? There's the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox (both just as ancient as Catholicism), there's the Eastern-Rite Catholics (in communion with the Bishop of Rome but with different traditions from their Latin-Rite brethren), Anglicans, mainline Protestants, etc. Guess what? All of them believe in the Trinity. You non-Trinitarians are a very tiny minority in Christianity.
     
  15. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
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    Although this was posted by me in the literature section, I hope it's OK to post here since it is relevant.

    You can read Isaiah 49 and 1 Nephi 21 at scriptures.lds.org . 1 Nephi is part of the Book of Mormon.

    1 Nephi 21 is supposed to be a better translation than the KJV of Isaiah 49. You can judge for yourself.

    Anyway, I wrote commentary in my free book at www.allmynoodles.com/five . You can find 1 Nephi 21 there.

    You can follow along and see what you think about my argument that it is Jesus Christ from the viewpoint of my Church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and I believe a general viewpoint.

    Hopefully the mods are OK with that.
     
    #35 robocop (actually), Nov 11, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
  16. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    It's ambiguous, but I suggest it's Israel.
    Having said that there are other verses which Israel sees as itself (Isaiah 53)
    but clearly are a Messiah - for a people can't be their own Redeemer.
     
  17. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    It's Jesus of course. He is the "heart of flesh" (Ezekiel 36:36) that would replace the "heart of stone" which is the tablets of the old Covenant. It's symbolic that the people's hearts were still hardened(as stone) and could not truly submit to the Law of God. And He would sprinkle the nations with His own blood. (Isaiah 52:15) Just as Moses sprinkled the people with the blood of animals. (Exodus 24:8)

    The Hebrew nation was an earthly people. A worldly nation. Their hearts could not be subject to the Law of God.

    Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. (Romans 8:7)

    It takes the regeneration from within by the outpouring of the holy Spirit that can really make someone's heart submit to the Law of God.

    This is why the Spirit is given to turn us unto God from within. Because this was the great problem Jesus encountered with the Pharisees. Although they were careful to do all things in order to make an outward show of respecting God's Law ... yet Jesus claimed that within they were as filthy as dead men's bones etc. (Matthew 23:27)
     
  18. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    Agreed

    since the price of redeeming him is too costly, one should forever stop trying-
    Ps 49:8
    Holman study Bible

    Only God can redeem from sin
     
  19. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Jesus is the true Israel that lives forever. Notice that Jacob is dead. "Out of Egypt I have called my Son"

    Well the only way Jacob left Israel was as a corpse! (Genesis 50:7)

    But Jesus died once and rose again becoming the head of the body of eternal Israel. See, you have to differentiate between earthly Israel (a mortal physical nation) and eternal Israel who is immortal and Jesus is the beginning of it. (Colossians 1:18) Even Jacob will be resurrected as part of the body of Christ. That is Jesus will be His head. So Jacob is not the beginning of the eternal Israel; just the earthly Israel.
     
  20. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    The same could be said of David.

    "I will set David over them" in Ezekiel

    David would be figuratively representing Jesus there *** well
     
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