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who is the liar...?

waitasec

Veteran Member
John doesnt mention the apostolic age. But what it means is the time when the apostles were still among the congregations. By the time John wrote his letters he was very old and was the last of the apostles...all the others had passed on.

The apostate age is spoken of in the verse under discussion. When he said that it is 'the last hour' he mentions that the antichrist was coming.

i don't see what you see..
this is what i see
"18 Dear children, this is the last hour (the apostate age); and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They (the antichrists)went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."

"they" (the antichrists) is referred to in chapter 2
"3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person."

so the liars the ones who deny christ are the antichrists... and john was fully expecting to experience what you call the apostate age. this is the last hour means it is the last our...john NEVER said this is the last hour of the apostolic age he was referring to the apostate age because in the antichrists have come...

The Apostle Paul spoke about the apostolic age as acting 'as a restraint' against the apostate age...even in the first century this 'lawless' one was already at work, but when those who acted as a restraint got to be 'out of the way' then the lawless one would reveal himself and get to be revealed.
2Thess 2:1-8 However, brothers, respecting the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and... that the day of Jehovah is here. 3...it will not come unless the apostasy comes first...7 True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work; but only till he who is right now acting as a restraint gets to be out of the way. 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed"

that is pretty much what happened to the church. When all the apostles were gone, apostate teachers emerged and began to teach different doctrines and to divide the church.... today we see the results of that in the many many different christian churches with many different teachings.

read a little further and you'll see
vs 13 But we ought always to thank God for YOU, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose YOU as firstfruits

Some manuscripts "because from the beginning God chose YOU"...(per new international version)
One early ms reads first fruits (per the new american standard bible)
hmmm that is quite suspect... first fruits implies there will be more to follow... however this is easily refuted by the previous line "we ought to thank god for YOU"


another interesting thing to consider,in chapter 3 vs 1
"As for other matters, brothers and sisters, pray for us that the message of the Lord may spread rapidly "

why would they want it to spread rapidly? to beat the clock perhaps...?
 
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Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
so the liars the ones who deny christ are the antichrists... and john was fully expecting to experience what you call the apostate age. this is the last hour means it is the last our...john NEVER said this is the last hour of the apostolic age he was referring to the apostate age because in the antichrists have come...

Ah yes, I think I see how you are interpreting it. When John says 'it is the last hour' you take this to mean that it is 'the last hour of the antichrist', would that be correct?


If so i'll reason on that point. If correct it would mean that the antichrist warned of by Jesus was around when the Apostles were still active in the congregations. John does say that there had already been a number of antichrists when he was still alive... but look closely at what he says about them:

1 John 2:18: “Young children, it is the last hour, and, just as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now there have come to be many antichrists; from which fact we gain the knowledge that it is the last hour.”

John says they knew it was the last hour because of the prevalence of some antichrists appearing.... but notice that just before he says it he confirms an existing belief that 'the antichrist is coming'
Why would he first say the antichrist was still 'coming' if the time of the antichrist was almost over? It wouldnt make sense for him to say it that way if that is what he was thinking.

This is more an indication of something greater to come. Yes there had already been some christians who turned apostate (Judas being the first), but their denial of Christ could be easily refuted by any of the Apostles who were witnesses to the events of Jesus ministry. The real trouble for the christian congregation would begin when Apostates were active with no eye witnesses to counter their attacks.
This is why its more reasonable to conclude that when John said 'it is the last hour' he meant it would be the last hour before the 'antichrist arrived' in full swing if you know what i mean.
It was the last hour because he was a 98 year old man and the last of Jesus 12 Apostles....his passing would mark the beginning of the 'apostate age'

And Paul also indicated this at Acts 20:29-30 "I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among YOU and will not treat the flock with tenderness, 30 and from among YOU yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.
Notice Paul says 'after I go away'... he's referring to his death here.
And in his letter to Timothy he is even more direct.
1 Timothy 4:1-2 "However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons, 2 by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies..."

Apostasy begins with false teachings. While the apostles were alive the teachings were not false and if any were teaching falsehood, they could be dealt with by the apostles. But after the apostles were gone, the false teachers could become those 'wolves in sheeps clothing' because their would be no one with the authority to refute them.




another interesting thing to consider,in chapter 3 vs 1
"As for other matters, brothers and sisters, pray for us that the message of the Lord may spread rapidly "

why would they want it to spread rapidly? to beat the clock perhaps...?

My guess would be yes, most definitely. Spread true christianity quickly before the apostate teachers start to spread their lies.
 
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waitasec

Veteran Member
Ah yes, I think I see how you are interpreting it. When John says 'it is the last hour' you take this to mean that it is 'the last hour of the antichrist', would that be correct?


If so i'll reason on that point. If correct it would mean that the antichrist warned of by Jesus was around when the Apostles were still active in the congregations. John does say that there had already been a number of antichrists when he was still alive... but look closely at what he says about them:

1 John 2:18: “Young children, it is the last hour, and, just as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now there have come to be many antichrists; from which fact we gain the knowledge that it is the last hour.”

John says they knew it was the last hour because of the prevalence of some antichrists appearing.... but notice that just before he says it he confirms an existing belief that 'the antichrist is coming'
Why would he first say the antichrist was still 'coming' if the time of the antichrist was almost over? It wouldnt make sense for him to say it that way if that is what he was thinking.

This is more an indication of something greater to come. Yes there had already been some christians who turned apostate (Judas being the first), but their denial of Christ could be easily refuted by any of the Apostles who were witnesses to the events of Jesus ministry. The real trouble for the christian congregation would begin when Apostates were active with no eye witnesses to counter their attacks.
This is why its more reasonable to conclude that when John said 'it is the last hour' he meant it would be the last hour before the 'antichrist arrived' in full swing if you know what i mean.
It was the last hour because he was a 98 year old man and the last of Jesus 12 Apostles....his passing would mark the beginning of the 'apostate age'

And Paul also indicated this at Acts 20:29-30 "I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among YOU and will not treat the flock with tenderness, 30 and from among YOU yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.
Notice Paul says 'after I go away'... he's referring to his death here.
And in his letter to Timothy he is even more direct.
1 Timothy 4:1-2 "However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons, 2 by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies..."

Apostasy begins with false teachings. While the apostles were alive the teachings were not false and if any were teaching falsehood, they could be dealt with by the apostles. But after the apostles were gone, the false teachers could become those 'wolves in sheeps clothing' because their would be no one with the authority to refute them.

My guess would be yes, most definitely. Spread true christianity quickly before the apostate teachers start to spread their lies.

"The work was written to counter the heresies that Jesus did not come "in the flesh," 1 john was written between 100-110
that would be 70 to 80 after...
~wiki


according to john the antichrist had already arrived
1 john 4:3 But if someone claims to be a prophet and does not acknowledge the truth about Jesus, that person is not from God. Such a person has the spirit of the Antichrist, which you heard is coming into the world and indeed is already here.

you heard the antichrist was coming and now it is here

again...the time is near
rev 1:3 God blesses the one who reads the words of this prophecy to the church, and he blesses all who listen to its message and obey what it says, for the time is near.

heb 10: 32 Think back on those early days when YOU first learned about Christ.[j] Remember how you remained faithful even though it meant terrible suffering. 33 Sometimes you were exposed to public ridicule and were beaten, and sometimes you helped others who were suffering the same things. 34 You suffered along with those who were thrown into jail, and when all you owned was taken from you, you accepted it with joy. You knew there were better things waiting for you that will last forever.

35 So do not throw away this confident trust in the Lord. Remember the great reward it brings you! 36 Patient endurance is what you need now, so that you will continue to do God’s will. Then you will receive all that he has promised.

37 “For in just a little while,
the Coming One will come and not delay.

38 And my righteous ones will live by faith.[k]
But I will take no pleasure in anyone who turns away.”[l]

39 But we are not like those who turn away from God to their own destruction. We are the faithful ones, whose souls will be saved.

even paul believed the return of christ will happen in his lifetime.
i read this as letter to those that are loosing faith because it's taking so long for christ to return...hense
Remember how you remained faithful even though it meant terrible suffering...Patient endurance is what you need now, so that you will continue to do God’s will
why then ask for "patient endurance"...while using the "early days" as a back drop for making his point?

acts 20:29
after I leave- new international version
after my departure- new american standard
as soon as I'm gone- the message
I know that false teachers, like vicious wolves, will come in among you after I leave- new living translation

if paul is referring to his death then at least one translation would indicate something like;
after i leave this world
paul traveled...right?
he had to leave one place to get to the next
so when the boss was around the wolves stayed away...

1 Corinthians 7:29-31

29 What I mean, brothers and sisters, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they do not; 30 those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; 31 those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. For this world in its present form is passing away.

if the hour was not up or that time isn't short, why is he asking the church in corinth to live as though the returning of christ was coming within their lifetime. asking a married couple to not have sex well that would mean no more children...asking people to not mourn means you will see your loved ones very soon...
 
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Its really simple, the relevant people in Jesus' time rejected him, are they all liars? obviously they aren't, they stuck to their centuries old traditions which hold that proclaiming to be the messiah or the son of god is an abomination. for the Jewish men of the time it was no lie to deny a fellow Jew as Christ, it was professing their faith. if modern Christians want to call the society around Jesus as liars, what can I say, they haven't learned their history, Jews have always denied the divinity of Jesus, and will continue to do so, and no pope or priest will ever change that.


If you are a jew living in Israel and you deny the Christ, then you must believe that your salvation will be atoned for by the High Priest of Israel right? Tell me then, who is the High Priest of Israel? There truely is a high priest -and a King! I myself know , lets see if you answer . . ..
 

ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member
I am.

Isn't that funny, in an ironic sense? Sorry, I didn't even read; I responded. I just do not accept that the word "liar" has any meaning; that a "lie" is a truth of high entropy. If god inspired Word, then what are these words? Lies? Hardly. Deeper understanding of god.
 

12jtartar

Active Member
Premium Member
It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ.
1 john 2:22

how does lying equate to denial? anyone...?

waitasec,
As the Scriptures say the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ, or Messiah, is a lier. A one who denies that Jesus is the Christ is also an Antichrist, 1John 2:22,18.
This means that anyone who presumes to teach Doctrine had better mak sure that he knows the truth of the Scriptures, because he will be held responsible or his teaching, James 3:1, 2Peter 3:16. Consider what God thinks about people who teach anything different than what the Bible teaches, Proverbs 30:5,6, Psalms 5:6, Revelation 21:8 22:15.
Remember, the Bible teaches that there will be many false teachers, with several reasons for their teaching. Some try to get people to follow them, Acts 20:29,30, and some just do not know what they are talking about, 1Timothy 1:3,6,7.
Even worse some teach false Doctrine with the plan of exploiting the unwary, 2Peter 2:1-3. Remember though, it makes no difference the reason for the false teaching, they are condemned for teaching lies, 2Peter 3:16.
As the Bible tells us, one of the reasons for judgment against a person, is not having a love for truth, John 4:23,24, 1Thesalonians 2:9-14. Agape!!!
 
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