Who Invented The Trinity ?

[Quiddity]

Gee, I believe in the same system, established by Christ and run by his prophet.

Except one major difference (others as well but I'll focus on this one). Your system cannot be said to be to for "all time". 1700 years or so of absense is not for "all time".

~Victor

 

[nutshell]

Except one major difference (others as well but I'll focus on this one). Your system cannot be said to be to for "all time". 1700 years or so of absense is not for "all time".

~Victor

Your previous post did not include "for all time" as a requirement for the system. This just gets us back to the apostacy debate, which according to my interpretation is clearly mentioned in the Bible and according to yours is clearly not.

 

[Quiddity]

Your previous post did not include "for all time" as a requirement for the system. This just gets us back to the apostacy debate, which according to my interpretation is clearly mentioned in the Bible and according to yours is clearly not.

Rrrrright...
What I said was "through all time".
Perhaps you can start a thread in the "Biblical Debates" section and you can explain to me what was the need for the gap. Would love to hear what you have to say.

~Victor

 

[Katzpur]

Rrrrright...
What I said was "through all time".
Perhaps you can start a thread in the "Biblical Debates" section and you can explain to me what was the need for the gap. Would love to hear what you have to say.

~Victor

I don't think there was a "need for the gap." On the other hand, the time and place for a restoration needed to be right. Hypothetically speaking, of course -- since you don't believe in an Apostasy in the first place -- suppose this "falling away" Paul prophesied of really had taken place. If you think a Restoration would have been successful any earlier than the early 1800's and in any country except America, you'll have to argue pretty convincingly to sway me.

Have you ever read the book, A World Lit Only by Fire, by William Manchester? It provides a pretty insightful look at the hold Catholicism had on the western world for roughly fifteen hundred years. I'm not saying this to be critical, and the book is not by a Latter-day Saint. The author is a respected historian and doesn't have an anti-Catholic agenda. In fact, if you were to ask him, he'd probably simply describe his book as a history of midieval Europe. But it was clear to me, when I read it, that the "gap" you referred to did not exist because of a "need," but as a result of the religious, political and culural climate of the times.

 

[john313]

i just found it was Al Gore that invented the trinity, i guess he came across it while he was inventing the internet.

 

[Quiddity]

I don't think there was a "need for the gap." On the other hand, the time and place for a restoration needed to be right. Hypothetically speaking, of course -- since you don't believe in an Apostasy in the first place -- suppose this "falling away" Paul prophesied of really had taken place. If you think a Restoration would have been successful any earlier than the early 1800's and in any country except America, you'll have to argue pretty convincingly to sway me.

Have you ever read the book, A World Lit Only by Fire, by William Manchester? It provides a pretty insightful look at the hold Catholicism had on the western world for roughly fifteen hundred years. I'm not saying this to be critical, and the book is not by a Latter-day Saint. The author is a respected historian and doesn't have an anti-Catholic agenda. In fact, if you were to ask him, he'd probably simply describe his book as a history of midieval Europe. But it was clear to me, when I read it, that the "gap" you referred to did not exist because of a "need," but as a result of the religious, political and culural climate of the times.

Such trite reasons are but all to familiar to all mighty God. Catholicism having "control" should have been the least of your worries. But I guess God is limited by politicultural climate. It's not like God to enter the scence when things are rough, eh? Hint: The coming of Christ.

Thanks for the book recommendation.

~Victor

 

[Katzpur]

Such trite reasons are but all to familiar to all mighty God. Catholicism having "control" should have been the least of your worries. But I guess God is limited by politicultural climate. It's not like God to enter the scence when things are rough, eh? Hint: The coming of Christ.

You're absolutely right. God could have stepped in and made sure everything worked out just the way He wanted. The only problem would have been that He would have had to take away the free agency of millions of people, which He would never have done. When Christ comes again, He will obviously reign supreme. But without His personal presence here on earth, God pretty much lets people run the world as they see fit. If you don't believe that, just look around you.

 

[blueman]

Trinity in the Bible

References in the Bible to a Trinity of divine beings are vague, at best.

In Matthew 28:19, we find Jesus telling his disciples to go out and preach to all nations. While this "Great Commission" does make mention of the three persons who later become components of the Trinity, the phrase "...baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" is quite clearly an addition to Biblical text--that is, not the actual words of Jesus-- as can be seen by two factors:

1) baptism in the early Church, as discussed by Paul in his letters, was done only in the name of Jesus; and

2) the "Great Commission" was found in the first gospel written, that of Mark, bears no mention of Father, Son and/or Holy Ghost--see Mark 16:15.

The only other reference in the Bible to a Trinity can be found in the Epistle of I John 5:7. Biblical scholars of today, however, have admitted that the phrase "... there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" is definitely a "later addition" to Biblical text, and it is not found in any of today's versions of the Bible.

It can, therefore, be seen that the concept of a Trinity of divine beings was not an idea put forth by Jesus or any other prophet of God. This doctrine, now subscribed to by Christians all over the world, is entirely man-made in origin.


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That is not an accurate statement. Jesus talked about the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit throughout His ministry. All three spiritual beings are one because they share the same attributes. This was not man-made doctrine, but taught by Jesus himself. Jesus promised the disciples that he would send a Comforter, confirming that the Holy Spririt would dwell in them as they carried forth the mission of spreading the Gospel as they were charged with in the Great Commission.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Tertullian invented the term trinity (trinitas) if I remember correctly, but he didn't describe it the same as the trinity that is believed in today. Those beliefs came from greek philosophers such as Plato.

So do you think that Greek philosophers had a concept of the Trinity? I'd love to see some citations from the philosophers that support this statement.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

You say I John 5:7 ..and there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one. is not in the original manuscripts, but you are wrong! Of the 3,509 surviving Greek texts, only 2 of them disagree with the others, unforunately tranlators of some of the modern versions went with the 2 (vaticanus and sinaticus) manuscripts that were corrupted. All the others agree with each other, those 2 have many errors, but because of their age, modern translators gave them precedence, which was incorrect.

There are closer to 5000 Greek MSS, and 10,000 Latin and Coptic MSS dating as late as the 16th century. The Textus Receptus of the KJV uses Latin variants to fill in many gaps, and as you point out, it does not follow the earliest versions.

Where do your 3,509 MSS come from (by the way, you did not mention that NO two copies are identical - every last one of them is 'corrupted' in the strict meaning of the term)? They are copies of copies of copies. Just because something is recopied does not mean that it is correct. The earliest text is most closest to the original, and we can see that later copiests and editors added stuff, and we reject it because we know that it was not early.

 

[James the Persian]

So do you think that Greek philosophers had a concept of the Trinity? I'd love to see some citations from the philosophers that support this statement.

Yeah, I'd like to see some evidence of this Platonic Trinity also. I know of no Greek philosopher that referred to a Trinity. I can't honestly see how anyone can read the New Testament and not come away as either a Trinitarian or a Tritheist (if that's a word?). The latter would contradict the OT, however, and so is clearly not an option. Nobody invented the Trinity, it is the revealed nature of God. Asking who coined the term Trinity is a different matter, but one that strikes me as barely relevant. The name is a description of the doctrine that God is one in three Hypostases, and that's all it is.

James

 

[jonny]

So do you think that Greek philosophers had a concept of the Trinity? I'd love to see some citations from the philosophers that support this statement.

I'm at work right now, but I'll work on getting this tonight.

From Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinitarianism

The Church is charged with adopting these pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and adapted to Christian thinking by means of Greek philosophy. As evidence of this, critics of the doctrine point to the widely acknowledged synthesis of Christianity with platonic philosophy, which is evident in Trinitarian formulas that appeared by the end of the third century. Catholic doctrine became firmly rooted in the soil of Hellenism; and thus an essentially pagan idea was forcibly imposed on the churches beginning with the Constantinian period. At the same time, neo-Platonic trinities, such as that of the One, the Nous and the Soul, are not a trinity of consubstantial equals as in orthodox Christianity.

Also, just search on the internet for platonic and trinity and you'll find lots of information.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I'm at work right now, but I'll work on getting this tonight.

From Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinitarianism


Also, just search on the internet for platonic and trinity and you'll find lots of information.

Thanks.

It seems like a pretty baseless charge at this time.

 

[spacemonkey]

That is not an accurate statement. Jesus talked about the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit throughout His ministry. All three spiritual beings are one because they share the same attributes. This was not man-made doctrine, but taught by Jesus himself. Jesus promised the disciples that he would send a Comforter, confirming that the Holy Spririt would dwell in them as they carried forth the mission of spreading the Gospel as they were charged with in the Great Commission.

Do you have specific referances, or were you a witness to Jesus's ministry? I'm pretty sure that Jesus never said that all three were one and the same, as suggested by the Council of Nicaea. Before the council, called by Constatine, there where several differant views on the nature of the relationship between God and Jesus. One of the priniciple alternate beliefs, put forth by a priest named Arius, was that Jesus was created by and inferior too the Father. Another intreasting thing accomplished by this council was the adjusting of the time of year that the ressurection was observed to coincide with a Pagan festival honoring the fertility goddess Eostre giving us Easter. Ever wonder where the Easter Bunny comes from? Nothing quite represents fertility like a bunny!

 

[Katzpur]

Yeah, I'd like to see some evidence of this Platonic Trinity also. I know of no Greek philosopher that referred to a Trinity. I can't honestly see how anyone can read the New Testament and not come away as either a Trinitarian or a Tritheist (if that's a word?). The latter would contradict the OT, however, and so is clearly not an option. Nobody invented the Trinity, it is the revealed nature of God. Asking who coined the term Trinity is a different matter, but one that strikes me as barely relevant. The name is a description of the doctrine that God is one in three Hypostases, and that's all it is.

James

You're right. No Greek philosopher did refer to a Trinity. However, it was through Greek philosophical thought (neo-Platonism specifically) by which the dilemma of how there could be a Father, a Son and a Holy Ghost -- but only one "God" -- was resolved. I have a fascinating book on the subject. Unfortunately, you would not find the author's work valid, because he is LDS. He does, however, cite the works of numerous non-LDS scholars who have said essentially the same thing as we do. I don't know how I'd even begin to cover his evidence on a discussion forum such as this. But it shouldn't be all that difficult to find information of this source online.

 

[blueman]

Do you have specific referances, or were you a witness to Jesus's ministry? I'm pretty sure that Jesus never said that all three were one and the same, as suggested by the Council of Nicaea. Before the council, called by Constatine, there where several differant views on the nature of the relationship between God and Jesus. One of the priniciple alternate beliefs, put forth by a priest named Arius, was that Jesus was created by and inferior too the Father. Another intreasting thing accomplished by this council was the adjusting of the time of year that the ressurection was observed to coincide with a Pagan festival honoring the fertility goddess Eostre giving us Easter. Ever wonder where the Easter Bunny comes from? Nothing quite represents fertility like a bunny!

Jesus talked about His relationship with God throughout the New Testament, but if you like I will focus on John 14:6-16 as a reference point. What you fail to understand is that I am not saying the three are one and the same being, but three beings who all share the same attributes (omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, etc.) all having that oneness/uniformity in relation to those attributes.

 

[spacemonkey]

Here are some links for you guys

http://www.apostolic.edu/apostolicpillar/articles/trinity.html
http://www.brysons.net/miltonweb/milton05.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

There are a ton more, but as you can see nearly EVERY scholar agrees that the Trinity is NOT mentioned in the Bible. Many christens of the 4th century and before believed that Jesus was CREATED BY and as a result INFERIOR TOO God. To them the Holy Spirit was CREATED BY and therefore INFERIOR too Jesus. This then implied a hierarchy, not the belief that all 3 were equal and the same.

 

[spacemonkey]

Jesus talked about His relationship with God throughout the New Testament, but if you like I will focus on John 14:6-16 as a reference point. What you fail to understand is that I am not saying the three are one and the same being, but three beings who all share the same attributes (omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, etc.) all having that oneness/uniformity in relation to those attributes.

The Christian doctrine of the Trinity states that God is a single being who exists, simultaneously and eternally, as a communion of three Persons: the Father, the Son (the eternal Logos, incarnate as Jesus of Nazareth), and the Holy Spirit.

It seems that your beliefs are differant then that of standard Christian doctraine if you don't belive they are one in the same being. That is the deffinition of the Trinity.

 

[blueman]

It seems that your beliefs are differant then that of standard Christian doctraine if you don't belive they are one in the same being. That is the deffinition of the Trinity.

In Genesis 1:26, who was God speaking to when He said "Let us make man in our own image"? Since God made humans to be be greater than the angels in heaven, I don't think He was speaking to them and He sure was not speaking to Himself. Also, in Ephesians 1:15-20, it talks about the authority and rule given to the Jesus, who sits on the right hand of the Father in heavenly realms, given dominion and power over all. The reference to the Son seated on the right side of the Father is reference many times throughout the New Testament. So your right, I am not in agreement with the doctrine that they are one being as opposed to three spiritual beings that all share the same deified attributes.

 

[joeboonda]

Here are some links for you guys

http://www.apostolic.edu/apostolicpillar/articles/trinity.html
http://www.brysons.net/miltonweb/milton05.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

There are a ton more, but as you can see nearly EVERY scholar agrees that the Trinity is NOT mentioned in the Bible. Many christens of the 4th century and before believed that Jesus was CREATED BY and as a result INFERIOR TOO God. To them the Holy Spirit was CREATED BY and therefore INFERIOR too Jesus. This then implied a hierarchy, not the belief that all 3 were equal and the same.

Micah 5:2 says But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah...out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Psalm 90:2 even from everlasting to everlasting thou art God.

Acts 20:18 ...feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Romans 14:10b,12 for we shall all stand before the judgement seat of Christ...So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

I Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Jesus also said before Abraham was, I am! He said this a few times. Meaning, he was not a created being, he had no origin, he is from everlasting, he is God incarnate, he is King of Kings and Lord of Lords who came here to pay for our sins and offer eternal life as a free gift to all who would believe he was who he said he was and trust that God was satisfied with the sacrifice he made for our sins.

Mathew 28:18-20 And Jesus came and spake unto them saying, ALL power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you; and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

This is God's word, preserved to us, 95% of all surviving greek manuscripts agree here. This is from the textus receptus, and directly from the King James Version of the Bible. This is the truth, you can count on it, you have God's word on it.