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Who bears the burden of proof?

NeoSeeker

Searching Low & High
What is a non-ignostic?

Something just occurred to me: wouldn't the first burden be taken up by the non-ignostic?

Ignosticism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Before we can evaluate a claim... or determine whether it can even be evaluated, we need some sort of reasonable, agreed-upon definition for the terms involved.

Any idea why an Ignostic would consider the Agnostic view point invalid? I don't see it.

Agnosticism is the view that the truth value of certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims—is unknown or unknowable.[1]
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
This post has very good insight. I would purport that a primary understanding and definition of G-d is creator.

So if a particular hypothetical god is not a creator, it is not a god? This excludes many polytheistic notions of what "god" means (as well as some of Mormon theology, surprisingly, unless my understanding of it is wrong).

I would take this notion of creator and expand on that idea that a creator is that which begins with something and is able to transform or change or bring about change so that the result after the change is arguably different.
"Begins with something"... so you reject the idea of a god creating ex nihilo? That's a key element of many other descriptions of "God" that I've heard.

In this manner that which takes something ordered and changes it to chaos is a creator of chaos. That which takes stuff in which there is no life and transforms that to something living is a creator of life.

Using this line of thinking – Since there was an era during which there was no life on this planet earth and since there now is an era in which there is an abundance of life. Therefore it is reasonable to conclude and assume that there is a creator of life.


Umm... I'm not so sure about that. I think it's reasonable to conclude and assume that there is a cause of life, but I think the term "creator" also implies intentionality and agency, both of which I think need their own rationales if we're going to accept them as necessary.

I will now take this to another step. I purport that it is both reasonable and probable that through intelligence manipulation of stuff that has no life that life could be engineered (or created) as a result. I also purport that this possibility is not completely and forever beyond the intelligence of man. That such an idea can only become possible by mankind pursuing the possibility.
Therefore I define G-d as that which possesses such intelligence sufficient to create life. I also put forth that the very intelligence by which life can be created is not foreign to man. In other words that man is in the image and likeness of that intelligence capable of creating life.

IMO, I think we only need to infer intelligence if we first assume intent.

As an example, consider the Mississippi River basin: if we think of it as a massive drainage engineering work, we would have to assume that it was the creation of an intelligence far beyond humanity. Imagine the intricacy of creating a system of watersheds, creeks, rivers, hydraulic jumps, lakes, and everything else, all perfectly meshed together so that a full third of a continent (IIRC) all drains into the Gulf of Mexico.

It would be beyond our human capability to engineer a system that would collect and convey rainwater from North Dakota, Wisconsin, Wyoming, and Pennsylvania to the Gulf of Mexico and that would operate for centuries without maintenance.

Now... why don't we have Creationists running around holding up the Mississippi River Basin as an example of God's intelligence? It's because there's no good reason to assume that God particular wanted this vast volume of rainwater to drain into the Gulf of Mexico instead of someplace else.

Because we don't assume that the arrangement we see is intentional, we (or most of us, anyhow) have no problem recognizing that the entire Mississippi River watershed is the product of unintelligent natural processes and nothing more.

I agree that deliberately creating life from scratch would be a monumental undertaking requiring immense intelligence. However, I have absolutely no reason to assume that life was deliberately created.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
The burden of proof is for people trying to prove something: When I say "I have proof that God exists" then I will have the burden of proof. If I were to say "You should believe in God" then, I would also have the burden of proof (especially if the person I am speaking to asks for it). But if I say "I believe that God exists" then I don't think I should have to prove anything, unless I wanted the proof myself.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
The burden of proof is for people trying to prove something: When I say "I have proof that God exists" then I will have the burden of proof. If I were to say "You should believe in God" then, I would also have the burden of proof (especially if the person I am speaking to asks for it). But if I say "I believe that God exists" then I don't think I should have to prove anything, unless I wanted the proof myself.
Right - the whole question of the burden of proof only comes into play if you're asserting a claim. Simply stating your opinion isn't enough for it to be a claim.
 

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
God already proved that he exists by making his creation.

Not if all of creation is just a figment of my imagination... Which is also an opportunity that is on the table.

Hang on...does that make me god?

Hah! Worship me mortals!!! :D


Seriously though, that argument is a non starter for so many reason I don't even know where to begin.
 

gerobbins

What's your point?
The burden of proof is for people trying to prove something: When I say "I have proof that God exists" then I will have the burden of proof. If I were to say "You should believe in God" then, I would also have the burden of proof (especially if the person I am speaking to asks for it). But if I say "I believe that God exists" then I don't think I should have to prove anything, unless I wanted the proof myself.


That would be the same as saying God does not exist, where is your proof he does not?
 

Zadok

Zadok
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So if a particular hypothetical god is not a creator, it is not a god? This excludes many polytheistic notions of what "god" means (as well as some of Mormon theology, surprisingly, unless my understanding of it is wrong).


"Begins with something"... so you reject the idea of a god creating ex nihilo? That's a key element of many other descriptions of "God" that I've heard.



Umm... I'm not so sure about that. I think it's reasonable to conclude and assume that there is a cause of life, but I think the term "creator" also implies intentionality and agency, both of which I think need their own rationales if we're going to accept them as necessary.


IMO, I think we only need to infer intelligence if we first assume intent.

As an example, consider the Mississippi River basin: if we think of it as a massive drainage engineering work, we would have to assume that it was the creation of an intelligence far beyond humanity. Imagine the intricacy of creating a system of watersheds, creeks, rivers, hydraulic jumps, lakes, and everything else, all perfectly meshed together so that a full third of a continent (IIRC) all drains into the Gulf of Mexico.

It would be beyond our human capability to engineer a system that would collect and convey rainwater from North Dakota, Wisconsin, Wyoming, and Pennsylvania to the Gulf of Mexico and that would operate for centuries without maintenance.

Now... why don't we have Creationists running around holding up the Mississippi River Basin as an example of God's intelligence? It's because there's no good reason to assume that God particular wanted this vast volume of rainwater to drain into the Gulf of Mexico instead of someplace else.

Because we don't assume that the arrangement we see is intentional, we (or most of us, anyhow) have no problem recognizing that the entire Mississippi River watershed is the product of unintelligent natural processes and nothing more.

I agree that deliberately creating life from scratch would be a monumental undertaking requiring immense intelligence. However, I have absolutely no reason to assume that life was deliberately created.

A couple of things - there may be many interpretations of G-d. I have chosen the "creator" root because in most cases, ancient and modern concepts of G-d - is involved with the creation. However, I am skipping all the arguments pro and con about the initial creation being intelligent. My point is to look at this from another angle. That is that anything that has occurred without intelligence (if such is really the case) can be reverse engineered with intelligence. Man may not be capable today at reverse engineering everything we encounter but I see no logic moving forward to say anything that is possible cannot also be possible by intelligent reverse engineering.

As far as creation from nothing - or ex nihilo. I do not believe any such thing nor do I know anyone of any religion with a scientific background that actually believes that. For myself, I believe this is a Dark Age concept based in faulty interpretation of ancient text. But this is not really a point of discussion.

My point is that once we understand all the input parameters involved in the creation of anything and once we have intelligent control of such parameters – Anyone intelligently in control can create. Once a person fully understands this notion I would be glad to review scripture and show how this can be understood and interpreted - even from the ancient scriptures as well as many ancient cultures beyond those dependent on Biblical text.

Zadok
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
A couple of things - there may be many interpretations of G-d. I have chosen the "creator" root because in most cases, ancient and modern concepts of G-d - is involved with the creation.

I disagree.

I think that most cultures do have a creation story that involves some sort of god, but historically, most religions have many more non-creator gods than they do creator gods. Also, the creator is often considered distant and unapproachable; the actual religion is much more concerned with the non-creator gods than the creator god (one way I heard it described - I think in a William Gibson novel - is that the creator god "is too big and too far away to care if your *** is poor or you ain't getting laid").

However, I am skipping all the arguments pro and con about the initial creation being intelligent. My point is to look at this from another angle. That is that anything that has occurred without intelligence (if such is really the case) can be reverse engineered with intelligence. Man may not be capable today at reverse engineering everything we encounter but I see no logic moving forward to say anything that is possible cannot also be possible by intelligent reverse engineering.
I'm not really sure what you're getting at here. Does this fit into your argument somehow?

As far as creation from nothing - or ex nihilo. I do not believe any such thing nor do I know anyone of any religion with a scientific background that actually believes that. For myself, I believe this is a Dark Age concept based in faulty interpretation of ancient text. But this is not really a point of discussion.
But creation ex nihilo is an aspect of many real people's beliefs today. I think that if you create a definition for "god" that automatically excludes what they consider to be God, then it's a poor definition.

My point is that once we understand all the input parameters involved in the creation of anything and once we have intelligent control of such parameters – Anyone intelligently in control can create. Once a person fully understands this notion I would be glad to review scripture and show how this can be understood and interpreted - even from the ancient scriptures as well as many ancient cultures beyond those dependent on Biblical text.
That's all fine and good, but does the fact that the things in the universe are ultimately understandable necessarily mean that there's someone behind the scenes controlling everything?
 
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