Whitewashing god?

[no-body]

I think I explained that in post #55. God's taking vengeance does not make him vengeful, that is, desiring to take vengeance. God takes vengeance for the protection of the innocent, and to end wickedness. As Creator, he has the ultimate right and authority to do so.

A truly wise all knowing God would execute only justice, not vengeance.

 

[Skwim]

I think I explained that in post #55. God's taking vengeance does not make him vengeful, that is, desiring to take vengeance. God takes vengeance for the protection of the innocent, and to end wickedness. As Creator, he has the ultimate right and authority to do so.

So you think god does things he doesn't want to do?---and, we're not talking about doing something he regrets having to do. Is he being forced to do something against his will, like from some outside force? Of course not. He does what he does because his conscious has determined it's the right thing to do. Isn't that why you do what you do, your will has concluded that it's the right thing to do? If god didn't listen to his conscience his will would not direct him to do what he does. So in this case god's mind concluded that the thing to do is to be vengeful---impose vengeance. In short, god wanted to be vengeful. If he didn't he wouldn't be.

As for your attempt to put a spin on the word "vengeful," you can't have "vengeful" mean one thing when you need it to, and something else when you don't. Sorry but "vengeful" always means vengeful. So when god takes vengeance he is being vengeful. Now, I understand the corner you're in here and admire your attempt to get out of it, but this ploy of word-spin doesn't do it.

 

[rusra02]

So you think god does things he doesn't want to do?---and, we're not talking about doing something he regrets having to do. Is he being forced to do something against his will, like from some outside force? Of course not. He does what he does because his conscious has determined it's the right thing to do. Isn't that why you do what you do, your will has concluded that it's the right thing to do? If god didn't listen to his conscience his will would not direct him to do what he does. So in this case god's mind concluded that the thing to do is to be vengeful---impose vengeance. In short, god wanted to be vengeful. If he didn't he wouldn't be.

As for your attempt to put a spin on the word "vengeful," you can't have "vengeful" mean one thing when you need it to, and something else when you don't. Sorry but "vengeful" always means vengeful. So when god takes vengeance he is being vengeful. Now, I understand the corner you're in here and admire your attempt to get out of it, but this ploy of word-spin doesn't do it.

Appropriate are the words God inspired Ezekiel to say to people who merited God's anger: "Do I take any delight at all in the death of someone wicked, is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, and not in that he should turn back from his ways and actually keep living?" (Ezekiel 18:23)

A few verses later, Jehovah answered his rhetorical question in vs 23: "For I do not take any delight in the death of someone dying, is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah. So cause a turning back and keep living, O you people." (vs 32)

Justice demands that the wilfull and recalcitrant wicked by put to death. But Jehovah does not want to destroy them. He delights in showing mercy to repentant ones. Thus, God's love is fully balanced with his justice and wisdom.

​

 

[Skwim]

Appropriate are the words God inspired Ezekiel to say to people who merited God's anger: "Do I take any delight at all in the death of someone wicked, is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, and not in that he should turn back from his ways and actually keep living?" (Ezekiel 18:23)

So I assume then that you believe everything said in the Bible is the inspired truth of god, even that Adam died on the day he ate of the tree of knowledge.

Gen. 2:17
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
​

and that he lived for 930 years

Gen. 5:5
"And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died."

​

A few verses later, Jehovah answered his rhetorical question in vs 23: "For I do not take any delight in the death of someone dying, is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah. So cause a turning back and keep living, O you people."

No one is saying that god has to "delight" in his vengeance, only that he prefers it over not taking vengeance. Is every thing you prefer to do necessarily delightful?
​

 

[rusra02]

So I assume then that you believe everything said in the Bible is the inspired truth of god, even that Adam died on the day he ate of the tree of knowledge.

Gen. 2:17
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
​

and that he lived for 930 years

Gen. 5:5
"And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died."

​

You kinda changed gears there about Adam? On the very day Adam sinned, God pronounced the death penalty upon him: "In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return." (Genesis 3:19) Adam began to slowly die that very day. From God's judicial standpoint, the first couple died that day. God allowed the now sinful, dying couple to produce children before physical death overtook them.

No one is saying that god has to "delight" in his vengeance, only that he prefers it over not taking vengeance. Is every thing you prefer to do necessarily delightful? ​

Clearly, God does not prefer taking vengeance over not doing so. He much prefers to show mercy when there is a basis for doing so. He has demonstrated this repeatedly, not bringing retribution upon those deserving it, but who demonstrated repentance. The Ninevites, for but one example of many. (Jonah 3:4,10)

 

[Skwim]

You kinda changed gears there about Adam? On the very day Adam sinned, God pronounced the death penalty upon him: "In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return." (Genesis 3:19) Adam began to slowly die that very day. From God's judicial standpoint, the first couple died that day. God allowed the now sinful, dying couple to produce children before physical death overtook them.

Doesn't wash. To English speaking people, those for whom the English language Bible is published, "Die" means "To cease living; become dead; expire." It doesn't mean "sort of cease living" or "Kind of expire." If it did Gen. 2:17 would have said, "sort of cease living" or "kind of expire," or something of the sort. So the "die" in the passage was meant to convey the idea of "To cease living; become dead; expire." And god even emphasizes the point with "surely." ". . . for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." The selfsame day one eats one will also cease to live. Become dead. Expire.

Clearly, God does not prefer taking vengeance over not doing so. He much prefers to show mercy when there is a basis for doing so.

So why didn't he? Was something stopping him from showing mercy? Of course there was: his desire to inflict vengeance. He preferred to wreak vengeance than show mercy. Continuing to pretend otherwise is to indulge in childish apologetics.

He has demonstrated this repeatedly, not bringing retribution upon those deserving it, but who demonstrated repentance. The Ninevites, for but one example of many. (Jonah 3:4,10)

That's very nice of him, but it doesn't mitigate his vengeful nature one bit.

 

[rusra02]

Doesn't wash. To English speaking people, those for whom the English language Bible is published, "Die" means "To cease living; become dead; expire." It doesn't mean "sort of cease living" or "Kind of expire." If it did Gen. 2:17 would have said, "sort of cease living" or "kind of expire," or something of the sort. So the "die" in the passage was meant to convey the idea of "To cease living; become dead; expire." And god even emphasizes the point with "surely." ". . . for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." The selfsame day one eats one will also cease to live. Become dead. Expire.

A person under sentence of death is a "dead man walking." Jehovah pronounced the sentence of death upon Adam the same day in which he sinned. The fact that Adam did not die physically that day does not change that. From God's standpoint, Adam died that day. (Ephesians 2:1)

So why didn't he? Was something stopping him from showing mercy? Of course there was: his desire to inflict vengeance. He preferred to wreak vengeance than show mercy. Continuing to pretend otherwise is to indulge in childish apologetics.
That's very nice of him, but it doesn't mitigate his vengeful nature one bit.

I am reminded of the rebellious Israelites, who said of God: "The way of Jehovah is not adjusted right." Jehovah's reply is: "it is their way that is not adjusted right." (Ezekiel 33:17) It is good Jehovah is not vengeful, since he does not owe any of us sinful humans anything, especially not everlasting life. (John 3:16)

 

[fishy]

A person under sentence of death is a "dead man walking." Jehovah pronounced the sentence of death upon Adam the same day in which he sinned. The fact that Adam did not die physically that day does not change that. From God's standpoint, Adam died that day. (Ephesians 2:1)

So the judge who passed sentence is quite within his rights to believe that prisoner DEAD even after he is pardoned for a miscarriage of justice...........woohoo.
Really, if you are going to use analogies, at least try to make them sensible.

 

[rusra02]

So the judge who passed sentence is quite within his rights to believe that prisoner DEAD even after he is pardoned for a miscarriage of justice...........woohoo.
Really, if you are going to use analogies, at least try to make them sensible.

There is never a miscarriage of justice with God. His sentence of death upon Adam was final and irreversible. There would be no pardon. So, all the days Adam physically lived, and he lived a long time, he was dead from God's standpoint. (Ephesians 2:1)

 

[Skwim]

A person under sentence of death is a "dead man walking."

But ". . . for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." is more than a "sentence" of death. It's a promise of execution on that day.

Jehovah pronounced the sentence of death upon Adam the same day in which he sinned.

And which chapter and verse would this be in?

 

[bigbadgirl]

Any religion that describes their "God" as having human characteristics and emotions should know exactly where their "God" originated from. A "God" with human flaws? I don't think so. To find your"God", just look in the mirror.

 

[rusra02]

But ". . . for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." is more than a "sentence" of death. It's a promise of execution on that day.


And which chapter and verse would this be in?

Genesis 3:17,18