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When esoteric stuff gets intellectual

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Most really esoteric stuff (chakras, siddhis, kundalini, miracles, etc.) at one time was reserved for mystic royalty, the mystic sages and saints of our faith, deep in yogic sampradayas, beholden to the aftereffects of realising Parabrahman, nirvikalpa samadhi, the elite mystic, celibate to the core, all desires no more, karmas gone, no longer aware he even has an ego, able to go where even awareness can't go. Only the most inner of the inner knew much at all, let alone spoke about it.

Somehow (I have no idea how) this once secret knowledge reserved for the realised, passed on to each other through strict Guru-disciple relationships got out.

Instead of remaining experiential, it became intellectual, out of a necessity to interpret it in some way. and the only way available to the more common less sagely man was the intellect. But oh so much gets lost in that process. Rather than an inner dialogue of vibration, just as the sun heats the planet, it turned into words. Are there words for the sun heating the planet, or is it a process that is natural, and words are unecessary. Just go outside and feel it.

So we get scholars standing in temples not feeling it, we get avid but average ego-enhanced folks chatting away as if it were as external as sipping tea or walking a dog.

Fortunately, the true knowledge remains inner, as there are no words for it. The rest is intellectual gibberish, but the mystic understands that as a stage, smiles and shrugs.

In Saivam, there are 4 progressive stages ... charya, kriya, yoga, and jnana. Charya is good works, but disciplined committed good works. It's doing your dharma, humbly, according to the yamas and niyamas, practicing to the best of your ability. It's the basics, the place from where the other 3 start, and absolutely necessary in order for the other 3 to have any success at all.

Kriya is love of God, after the first one is mastered. It's seeing the duality, in order to ultimately realise the monistic non-duality.

Only then do we enter yoga, the quest for realisation, meditating, turning all that kriya within, to see Siva within, to go on the ultimate quest, union with God, that ends in the non-experience of nirvikalpa samadhi, where awareness itself dissolves and is no more, if but for a split second.

And finally we are in jnana, where the inner mystic stuff is. Now we learn to see the chakras, the hundreds of nadis extending out from each body, and if siddhis come they come, but they too are irrelevant.

(A silent sage in the tradition I follow sat still in a tea shop for 7 years, and peoples prayers were answered on small bits of paper, manifesting and floating down in front of devotees eager to learn.) He never once went 'Look at me, look at me, but just sat ... perfectly still)

And so .... I lament, the day after the holiest Saiva night of the year. Will the esoteric knowledge stay with us, of will it disappear, overwhelmed by an intellect so rigid it destroys?
 
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Jedster

Well-Known Member
Most really esoteric stuff (chakras, siddhis, kundalini, miracles, etc.) at one time was reserved for mystic royalty, the mystic sages and saints of our faith, deep in yogic sampradayas, beholden to the aftereffects of realising Parabrahman, nirvikalpa samadhi, the elite mystic, celibate to the core, all desires no more, karmas gone, no longer aware he even has an ego, able to go where even awareness can't go. Only the most inner of the inner knew much at all, let alone spoke about it.

Somehow (I have no idea how) this once secret knowledge reserved for the realised, passed on to each other through strict Guru-disciple relationships got out.

Instead of remaining experiential, it became intellectual, out of a necessity to interpret it in some way. and the only way available to the more common less sagely man was the intellect. But oh so much gets lost in that process. Rather than an inner dialogue of vibration, just as the sun heats the planet, it turned into words. Are there words for the sun heating the planet, or is it a process that is natural, and words are unecessary. Just go outside and feel it.

So we get scholars standing in temples not feeling it, we get avid but average ego-enhanced folks chatting away as if it were as external as sipping tea or walking a dog.

Fortunately, the true knowledge remains inner, as there are no words for it. The rest is intellectual gibberish, but the mystic understands that as a stage, smiles and shrugs.

In Saivam, there are 4 progressive stages ... charya, kriya, yoga, and jnana. Charya is good works, but disciplined committed good works. It's doing your dharma, humbly, according to the yamas and niyamas, practicing to the best of your ability. It's the basics, the place from where the other 3 start, and absolutely necessary in order for the other 3 to have any success at all.

Kriya is love of God, after the first one is mastered. It's seeing the duality, in order to ultimately realist the monistic non-duality.

Only then do we enter yoga, the quest for realisation, meditating, turning all that kriya within, to see Siva within, to go on the ultimate quest, union with God, that ends in the non-experience of nirvikalpa samadhi, where awareness itself dissolves and is no more, if but for a split second.

And finally we are in jnana, where the inner mystic stuff is. Now we learn to see the chakras, the hundreds of nadis extending out from each body, and if siddhis come they come, but they too are irrelevant.

(A silent sage in the tradition I follow sat still in a tea shop for 7 years, and peoples prayers were answered on small bits of paper, manifesting and floating down in front of devotees eager to learn.) He never once went 'Look at me, look at me, but just sat ... perfectly still)

And so .... I lament, the day after the holiest Saiva night of the year. Will the esoteric knowledge stay with us, of will it disappear, overwhelmed by an intellect so rigid it destroys?

Excellent & articulate post. Thanks.
Unfortunately many people are slaves to the intellect. They get off on 'knowing the words' of treachings/scriptures/masters etc.
It is a synthetic high.

They should wait until they have their own experience(s) before mouthing off.
This happens in many cultures I have seen, such as the neo-Kabbalists & the neo-Advaida 'gurus' which promise the fast track to Truth.
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
A problem with mysticism is the scope for superstition and erronous interpretations. This if not nipped in the bud can lead to a lot of issues later on.

Patanjali, Vivekananda and Jaggi Vasudev have given an intellectual version of mysticism or Raja Yoga to ensure that one is able to discriminate properly between mysticism and fraudulent versions, and hence choose wisely.

I agree with you that mere intellection is not spirituality or religion, but proper intellectual understanding is also a prerequisite for experiential understanding and avoiding superstition, error and delusion.

Most really esoteric stuff (chakras, siddhis, kundalini, miracles, etc.) at one time was reserved for mystic royalty, the mystic sages and saints of our faith, deep in yogic sampradayas, beholden to the aftereffects of realising Parabrahman, nirvikalpa samadhi, the elite mystic, celibate to the core, all desires no more, karmas gone, no longer aware he even has an ego, able to go where even awareness can't go. Only the most inner of the inner knew much at all, let alone spoke about it.

Somehow (I have no idea how) this once secret knowledge reserved for the realised, passed on to each other through strict Guru-disciple relationships got out.

Instead of remaining experiential, it became intellectual, out of a necessity to interpret it in some way. and the only way available to the more common less sagely man was the intellect. But oh so much gets lost in that process. Rather than an inner dialogue of vibration, just as the sun heats the planet, it turned into words. Are there words for the sun heating the planet, or is it a process that is natural, and words are unecessary. Just go outside and feel it.

So we get scholars standing in temples not feeling it, we get avid but average ego-enhanced folks chatting away as if it were as external as sipping tea or walking a dog.

Fortunately, the true knowledge remains inner, as there are no words for it. The rest is intellectual gibberish, but the mystic understands that as a stage, smiles and shrugs.

In Saivam, there are 4 progressive stages ... charya, kriya, yoga, and jnana. Charya is good works, but disciplined committed good works. It's doing your dharma, humbly, according to the yamas and niyamas, practicing to the best of your ability. It's the basics, the place from where the other 3 start, and absolutely necessary in order for the other 3 to have any success at all.

Kriya is love of God, after the first one is mastered. It's seeing the duality, in order to ultimately realise the monistic non-duality.

Only then do we enter yoga, the quest for realisation, meditating, turning all that kriya within, to see Siva within, to go on the ultimate quest, union with God, that ends in the non-experience of nirvikalpa samadhi, where awareness itself dissolves and is no more, if but for a split second.

And finally we are in jnana, where the inner mystic stuff is. Now we learn to see the chakras, the hundreds of nadis extending out from each body, and if siddhis come they come, but they too are irrelevant.

(A silent sage in the tradition I follow sat still in a tea shop for 7 years, and peoples prayers were answered on small bits of paper, manifesting and floating down in front of devotees eager to learn.) He never once went 'Look at me, look at me, but just sat ... perfectly still)

And so .... I lament, the day after the holiest Saiva night of the year. Will the esoteric knowledge stay with us, of will it disappear, overwhelmed by an intellect so rigid it destroys?


This is highly insightful , and thank you for this. :)



Most really esoteric stuff (chakras, siddhis, kundalini, miracles, etc.) at one time was reserved for mystic royalty, the mystic sages and saints of our faith, deep in yogic sampradayas, beholden to the aftereffects of realising Parabrahman, nirvikalpa samadhi, the elite mystic, celibate to the core, all desires no more, karmas gone, no longer aware he even has an ego, able to go where even awareness can't go. Only the most inner of the inner knew much at all, let alone spoke about it.

Only then do we enter yoga, the quest for realisation, meditating, turning all that kriya within, to see Siva within, to go on the ultimate quest, union with God, that ends in the non-experience of nirvikalpa samadhi, where awareness itself dissolves and is no more, if but for a split second.

I think there is incorrect terminology involved in the above excerpt.

The Self or Awareness is a constant in all experiences of the four states of waking, sleeping, dreaming ,Turiya and does not dissolve at any time.

I would say, the term to be used instead of the changeless Awareness, is Consciousness which is of a changeful nature.

“Awareness is primordial; it is the original state, beginningless, endless, uncaused, unsupported, without parts, without change. Consciousness is on contact, a reflection against a surface, a state of duality. There can be no consciousness without awareness, but there can be awareness without consciousness, as in deep sleep. Awareness is absolute, consciousness is relative to its content; consciousness is always of something. Consciousness is partial and changeful, awareness is total, changeless, calm and silent. And it is the common matrix of every experience.”
~ Nisargadatta Maharaj
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Of course what I wrote above aren't my personal insights, but those of the Gurus of my Saiva lineage. I personally have no understanding of such mystic matters. No experience, no understanding.

Modern mass market Gurus aren't my cup of tea. Many reasons.... the fees, the variances between teachers, the wordiness, the lack of discipline (including brahmacharya for some), the unending search for followers, the lack of personal relationship with devotees. One can be a great orator, but not a true mystic sage.

I'm reminded of my Guru's words one time, speaking to a small group of devotees ... "I'm not interested in how high you can go (referring to consciousness), but in how low you can go." In other words, what point have you sealed off to here you can;t go. Is anger still there? Is doubt still there? Is avarice still there? That's the really important stuff.

So for most of us on this sojourn to the Self, to nirvikalpa samadhi, and it's consequence, moksha, there are only 2 things to work on. Yamas, and niyamas. That is all the guidance we need.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Esoteric knowledge will never be destroyed because it is there to save the good. For those suited to this knowledge the mind searches. God ensures that.
I agree that it can't be destroyed because it's on the inside, resident within the genes of man, dormant perhaps, but what I meant was 'so rare that it's difficult to find'. In Paul Bruntons 'A Search in Secret India' he found it in one place, only one place, on the slopes of Arunachala.
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
Yes of course. Let's argue about it shall we? (sigh)

(Different schools us different terms. That's not a problem for me.)

The Holy Grail in Hinduism is the Self or Awareness and all paths lead to it.

Creating a proper and precise context with respect to the Self or Awareness hence is important, so as to avoid vagueness and incorrect understanding.

I know personally of people who attained enlightenment just by understanding Awareness in its proper context along with its application in life, without any other religious practices.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
And so .... I lament, the day after the holiest Saiva night of the year. Will the esoteric knowledge stay with us, of will it disappear, overwhelmed by an intellect so rigid it destroys?
:) You are well aware that my view differ from this, though I highly respect your views and I respect views other than yours as well. I am not a knight (Don Qixote), trying to bring down wind-mills. But let me put my views again. What is esoteric and why should it be any more than 'jnana'? 'Jnana' is never rigid, otherwise it won't be 'jnana'. I do not think 'jnana' destroys anything good. I my ten years in Hinduism Forum and 16,000+ posts, have you ever seen me deriding theism or our Acharyas? (Though I may be more forthright in other forums)
In Paul Bruntons 'A Search in Secret India' he found it in one place, only one place, on the slopes of Arunachala.
Ah! I found it sitting on my scooter in my house with Rama Charit Manas in my hand facing a busy Delhi road (Najafgarh Road) with cars and lorries/trucks (whatever you term that in your lingo) honking to their loudest. :D
 
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Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I know personally of people who attained enlightenment just by understanding Awareness in its proper context along with its application in life, without any other religious practices.

Personally, I certainly don't have the ability to ascertain whether a person is enlightened or not. Some who claim to be have lost all claims by sexual impropriety and the like. I once had the experience of a wise orator, great with words, admit to me he was an adulterer. So perhaps such events in my life have made me cynical to bold claims. Still, none of my business.
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
Personally, I certainly don't have the ability to ascertain whether a person is enlightened or not. Some who claim to be have lost all claims by sexual impropriety and the like. I once had the experience of a wise orator, great with words, admit to me he was an adulterer. So perhaps such events in my life have made me cynical to bold claims. Still, none of my business.

True indeed. There are authentic ones and there are fraudulent ones. And Kabir has taught the importance of critical examination to discern between the two as I explained in this thread of mine.

But just because there are fraudsters does not mean that there are no authentic ones as well. To judge all as fraudulent on the basis of a few such cases, would also be an error in perception and critical thinking.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
I think there is incorrect terminology involved in the above excerpt.

The Self or Awareness is a constant in all experiences of the four states of waking, sleeping, dreaming ,Turiya and does not dissolve at any time.

I would say, the term to be used instead of the changeless Awareness, is Consciousness which is of a changeful nature.

“Awareness is primordial; it is the original state, beginningless, endless, uncaused, unsupported, without parts, without change. Consciousness is on contact, a reflection against a surface, a state of duality. There can be no consciousness without awareness, but there can be awareness without consciousness, as in deep sleep. Awareness is absolute, consciousness is relative to its content; consciousness is always of something. Consciousness is partial and changeful, awareness is total, changeless, calm and silent. And it is the common matrix of every experience.”
~ Nisargadatta Maharaj

On top of the inherent lack of reliability of words in this area, as in all others, do remember that all Nisargadatta's words have been translated from the Marathi (and Sanskrit) by somebody with their own particular perspective.
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
On top of the inherent lack of reliability of words in this area, as in all others, do remember that all Nisargadatta's words have been translated from the Marathi (and Sanskrit) by somebody with their own particular perspective.

If you can understand Advaita properly, you will be able to understand the proper terms and words used. It is not rocket science.

Nisargadatta's terminology has been used by other Indian writers as well, and not just by translators. Other enlightened masters like Metta Zetty also uses similar terminology.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
If you can understand Advaita properly, you will be able to understand the proper terms and words used. It is not rocket science.

Nisargadatta's terminology has been used by other Indian writers as well, and not just by translators. Other enlightened masters like Metta Zetty also uses similar terminology.

Words are just words, ajay. Reading Nisargadatta has only made this clearer to me, to be honest.
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
Words are just words, ajay. Reading Nisargadatta has only made this clearer to me, to be honest.

Words are just words, but it is potent enough to give clarity of understanding as well. Siddharameshwar Maharaj's last words or oral communication to Nisargadatta made an impact in him to gain enlightenment later on.
 
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Fireside_Hindu

Jai Lakshmi Maa
Excellent
Most really esoteric stuff (chakras, siddhis, kundalini, miracles, etc.) at one time was reserved for mystic royalty, the mystic sages and saints of our faith, deep in yogic sampradayas, beholden to the aftereffects of realising Parabrahman, nirvikalpa samadhi, the elite mystic, celibate to the core, all desires no more, karmas gone, no longer aware he even has an ego, able to go where even awareness can't go. Only the most inner of the inner knew much at all, let alone spoke about it.

Somehow (I have no idea how) this once secret knowledge reserved for the realised, passed on to each other through strict Guru-disciple relationships got out.

Instead of remaining experiential, it became intellectual, out of a necessity to interpret it in some way. and the only way available to the more common less sagely man was the intellect. But oh so much gets lost in that process. Rather than an inner dialogue of vibration, just as the sun heats the planet, it turned into words. Are there words for the sun heating the planet, or is it a process that is natural, and words are unecessary. Just go outside and feel it.

So we get scholars standing in temples not feeling it, we get avid but average ego-enhanced folks chatting away as if it were as external as sipping tea or walking a dog.

Fortunately, the true knowledge remains inner, as there are no words for it. The rest is intellectual gibberish, but the mystic understands that as a stage, smiles and shrugs.

In Saivam, there are 4 progressive stages ... charya, kriya, yoga, and jnana. Charya is good works, but disciplined committed good works. It's doing your dharma, humbly, according to the yamas and niyamas, practicing to the best of your ability. It's the basics, the place from where the other 3 start, and absolutely necessary in order for the other 3 to have any success at all.

Kriya is love of God, after the first one is mastered. It's seeing the duality, in order to ultimately realise the monistic non-duality.

Only then do we enter yoga, the quest for realisation, meditating, turning all that kriya within, to see Siva within, to go on the ultimate quest, union with God, that ends in the non-experience of nirvikalpa samadhi, where awareness itself dissolves and is no more, if but for a split second.

And finally we are in jnana, where the inner mystic stuff is. Now we learn to see the chakras, the hundreds of nadis extending out from each body, and if siddhis come they come, but they too are irrelevant.

(A silent sage in the tradition I follow sat still in a tea shop for 7 years, and peoples prayers were answered on small bits of paper, manifesting and floating down in front of devotees eager to learn.) He never once went 'Look at me, look at me, but just sat ... perfectly still)

And so .... I lament, the day after the holiest Saiva night of the year. Will the esoteric knowledge stay with us, of will it disappear, overwhelmed by an intellect so rigid it destroys?


Excellent Post.

I sometimes catch myself rolling my eyes at some of my western counterparts who talk about "Chakra Cleanses" and Kundalini Awakening seminars like it's something you can comprehend in a weekend workshop. I don't understand these things, and I don't expect to. A consequence of this is I'm seen by these same peers as unenlightened or inauthentic. It doesn't bother me of course except to say that I wish they understood how much they don't understand.

My method of spiritual advancement is basically to walk around with humility and curiosity. Search, learn, contemplate, repeat. With some seva in the mix. I have to trust that when I am ready Devi will help me move further.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
True indeed. There are authentic ones and there are fraudulent ones. And Kabir has taught the importance of critical examination to discern between the two as I explained in this thread of mine.

But just because there are fraudsters does not mean that there are no authentic ones as well. To judge all as fraudulent on the basis of a few such cases, would also be an error in perception and critical thinking.
There are also sincere people teaching a path, doing decent work, but aren't enlightened trained sages. So for me it's not 'is' or isn't' but a range. Still I am unable to tell. There are some signals ... charging a fee, anger, celibacy, etc. Some are catalysts for the next oe, and there are still enough variations for everyone.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I sometimes catch myself rolling my eyes at some of my western counterparts who talk about "Chakra Cleanses" and Kundalini Awakening seminars like it's something you can comprehend in a weekend workshop.

And if they see you rolling your eyes they get all angry or conceited or condescending, proving to all around with any sense of wisdom just where they're actually being conscious at. (Which is somewhere below the muladara). But it's all part of the path.
 
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