When does the rapture take place?

[Moby]

One of the biggest mistakes one can make when reading the Bible is to think that the entire Bible applies to them. That is not the case. It looks like you are mixing up that which God meant for Israel with that which is meant for the church. Now it is true that we can learn from the OT (Rom 15:4), but Christians need to keep in mind that the OT is not written to them. It would be like reading a letter addressed to someone else and thinking everything it said was meant for themselves.

It is important to realize that everything Jesus did when he was here was to and for Israel. When a Gentile woman asked to heal her daughter, Jesus said,

Matt 15:24,

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
​

Of course, because of God's grace and her believing, Jesus was told by God to heal the woman's daughter. But that does not negate the truth that Jesus came to and for Israel, not the Gentiles. Gentiles were out of luck throughout the entire OT, including the Gospels.

Eph 2:12,

That at that time [before Pentecost and the new birth) ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
​

Israel was God's chosen people. He of course made many promises to them, one of the chief ones being that they would have an everlasting kingdom of their own. Well, Jesus came and there was no kingdom set up. Instead the Jews killed the king. At the death and resurrection of Jesus, the promised kingdom was left unfulfilled. But that doesn't mean all the promises God made to Israel will never get fulfilled. They will. That is precisely what Revelation is all about. It is God working with Israel to set up the kingdom He promised them in Genesis to John.

What about all the books between John's Gospel and Revelation? That is what Paul [by revelation] calls a mystery that was hidden in God until it was revealed to Paul.

Eph 3:9,

And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:​

Col 1:26-27,

26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now [Now when? After Pentecost when the new birth became available] is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:​

Nobody had Christ in them in the OT, including the gospels. Christ in you is the new birth and it was kept secret for a very good reason.

1Cor 2:7-8,

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.​

Why would the devil not have killed Jesus had he known the mystery? When Jesus was here on the earth there was one Jesus, in one place at a time, doing one thing. Now, since all Christians have Christ in them (Col 1:27), there are hundreds of millions of Christ's all over the world who are capable of doing everything Jesus did and even more. In speaking of the time after his future resurection, Jesus said,

John 14:12,

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
​

Wherever there is a Christian, there is Christ. The only thing the devil could do after he made his mistake, was to keep Christians from knowing the mystery that Paul talks about in his Epistles. Sad to say, as evidenced by a lack of preaching on Paul's mystery, the devil has been highly successful.

Eph 3:1-3,

1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,​

Most Christians are under the impression that there are 4 gospels. The scriptures say different. Specifically, the Apostle Paul was given a gospel from God.

Rom 16:25,

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my [Paul's] gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,​

The Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John will not establish the Christian. One could read them all day long for 100 years and they will not be established. Romans 16:25 is clear that it is only through Paul's gospel that the Christian can be established.

One of the key elements of Paul's gospel is given in Thessalonians:

1Thess 1:10,

And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.​

The wrath to come is that of Revelation. Christians are spared from that wrath because we won't be on the earth when it comes.

1 Thess 4:13-18,

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
​

There is no way anybody could not be filled with intense apprehension and fear thinking they will have to endure the tribulation. It would hardly be a comfort, which is clearly God's will for the Christian.

​

To summarize:

To get the story of Israel, read Genesis to John and then Revelation. The books between (Acts through Jude) are meant for born again believers and tell a rather different story than that of Israel. It is the story of Christendom. One of the differences is that we will be caught up into the clouds with Jesus before the events of Revelation. Since we are the lights of the world, that world will be plunged into utter darkness, otherwise called the tribulation. We'll be long gone before that takes place.

Notice the 1 Thessalonians 4:17 says we will be with the Lord forevermore after he gathers us together in the clouds. Revelation (and many other verses) say Jesus will come to earth the second time as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. He'll be cleaning house. The money changers in the temple Jesus cleared out will be chump change compared to his next appearance. One the things Revelation says is that Jesus will be accompanied by an army when he comes again. Who do you think that might be? Well, if we will have been gathered together in the clouds to be forevermore with the Lord, then when he comes, we'll be right there with him. We will be the Jesus' army. We will be the ones to help Jesus kick some devil butt! No wonder 1 Thessalonians 4:18 says to comfort one another with these words! I'd hardly think it a comfort to go through the tribulation.

For a more in depth look at all of this, I'd like to suggest:

https://christianovercomers.com/pdf_files/Commentary_On_Revelation_Bullinger.pdf

​

God bless you brother.

​

Please check this link our bro as Israel is much larger than most brethren think:

All Israel

 

[Moby]

Are you saying your interpretation is the Truth.

Regards Tony

Nope the scriptures are truth all we have to do is receive them just as they are written precept upon precept by faith:

1 Corinthians 4:6 Now these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes; that in us ye might learn not to go beyond the things which are written; that no one of you be puffed up for the one against the other.

Sum Of Thy Word

 

[Moby]

Good morning.

I see we missed it, it started in 1844.

We are in 'Judgement Day'.

Regards Tony

Sorry bro but a careful study of scriptures prove that no one was resurrected in 1844

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Sorry bro but a careful study of scriptures prove that no one was resurrected in 1844

I do not see that is correct. A careful study can lead one to the Bab (Gate).

Regards Tony

 

[Moby]

I do not see that is correct. A careful study can lead one to the Bab (Gate).

Regards Tony

Please show the scripture that points distinctly to the year 1844

 

[danieldemol]

for those who believe the bible is the Word of God there are very distinct truths that clearly point toward a very sure outcome told in advance but only those whose eyes are opened will it be evident:

Can you see how all these groups claiming to have their eyes opened to Bible prophecies allegedly clear meaning yet coming to different conclusions regarding what it says casts doubt on its alleged clarity for the rest of us who read with an open mind and find much ambiguity in bible prophecy?

 

[Moby]

Can you see how all these groups claiming to have their eyes opened to Bible prophecies allegedly clear meaning yet coming to different conclusions regarding what it says casts doubt on its alleged clarity for the rest of us who read with an open mind and find much ambiguity in bible prophecy?

All ambiguity is cleared up for the one who studies the Word exactly as our Father intended and laid out in this link but most bible colleges do not endorse:

Sum Of Thy Word

 

[danieldemol]

All ambiguity is cleared up for the one who studies the Word exactly as our Father intended and laid out in this link but most bible colleges do not endorse:

Sum Of Thy Word

Having read your link from post #67 it appears to be saying in summary that all relevant passages of scripture must be consulted.

I doubt that there are bible colleges which don't endorse the principle even if they won't endorse your particular link.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Please show the scripture that points distinctly to the year 1844

1260 of Revelation, which is also expressed as time, times and half a time, 3 & 1/2 years or 42 months.

The year AH1260 is AD1844.

There are really no clearer scriptures on prophecy. 1844 can also be determine from other prophecy, but to except the year 1260, one must also know the Revelation of Muhammad is also foretold.

Regards Tony

 

[Moby]

It is possible there are colleges that do but I have yet to find one that does not push "rightly dividing" which has ppromoted much of the heresy today.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Can you see how all these groups claiming to have their eyes opened to Bible prophecies allegedly clear meaning yet coming to different conclusions regarding what it says casts doubt on its alleged clarity for the rest of us who read with an open mind and find much ambiguity in bible prophecy?

I see clarity is only found in embracing the Messenger that fulfills that Prophecy. They are the ones that give that clarity.

So yes, it is a quandary indeed, and it is a bounty to face such decisions.

Regards Tony

 

[Moby]

1260 of Revelation, which is also expressed as time, times and half a time, 3 & 1/2 days or 42 months.

The year AH1260 is AD1844.

There are really no clearer scriptures on proohecy. 1844 can also be determine from other prophecy, but to except the year 1260, one must also know the Revelation of Muhammad is also foretold.

Regards Tony

The phrase "a thousand two hundred and threescore days" does not point to a specific year but a series of continuous days:

Revelation 11:3 And I will give unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that there they may nourish her a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The phrase "a thousand two hundred and threescore days" does not point to a specific year but a series of continuous days:

Revelation 11:3 And I will give unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that there they may nourish her a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

One uses other bible passages to determine that Bible has a 360 day year of 30 day months and that each day represents a year.

Thus 1260 continuous days is 1260 consecutive years. So the Message of Muhammad was that being spoke of and it was in the year 1260 that the Return started to unfold.

William Miller, that started the 7th day adventist movement was the first to find in scripture the year 1844. This is an adaption of that calculation.

Regards Tony

 

[Kenny]

Sorry had to step out for a bit! If you had read the link you would have noticed I touched on every point you brought up.

I did... and just like my previous post (which you never answered) - you put that scripture with no context or application.

We will have to agree to disagree... He will come (that we agree with). And since no man knows exactly when (though we can know the season which is close) - we will find out soon enough when the exact rapture will happen.

If I don't see you down here... we will see each other up there and one of us will, with a smile, say "I told you so". Or maybe find out we both were wrong.

Shalom to you!

 

[danieldemol]

It is possible there are colleges that do but I have yet to find one that does not push "rightly dividing" which has ppromoted much of the heresy today.

Was this link written by your sect?
What Did the Apostle Paul Mean by "Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth"?

Because it was the second link of a brief google search and it states that this translation of "rightly dividing the word of truth" is unique to the king James version of the bible.

So it may possibly be not that unique a principle as other churches would follow other bibles.

 

[Moby]

Was this link written by your sect?
What Did the Apostle Paul Mean by "Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth"?

Because it was the second link of a brief google search and it states that this translation of "rightly dividing the word of truth" is unique to the king James version of the bible.

So it may possibly be not that unique a principle as other churches would follow other bibles.

Sorry I never saw that link before nor heard of that group who wrote it but I do agree that the phrase "rightly dividing" is unique to the KJV.

 

[wellwisher]

When i was much younger and interested in bible prophesies, I tried to be figure out a way around the warning that says that one is not add or take away any words from the words of the prophesies. Most people either use only selective quotes; take away conflicting words; words are not used, or associates prophesy with specific times and places not written in prophesies; add words.

Instead of a warning I saw the quote as a hint. I figured one way to do this, proper, was to look at the prophesies, as a whole, as a puzzle with all the pieces in the box; bible, but all messed up. I needed spread out all the pieces and then start to pair and connected pieces, until the entire puzzle was built. This way not a single word would be added or taken away.

This idea came to me when home computers were just starting out, so there was not much in the way in software and apps, beyonds simple word processing. So I highlighted my entire bible, like a textbook, picking out every prothesis in both Old and New Testament. I then hired a girl to type it in my floppy disk computer. I printed it out to about 100 plus pages, and cut it all up and spread it over the floor in my living room.

The way approached it was to build around a core; Four Horseman. This was a symbol similar to the four sided Christian cross. The four horsemen were like four acts in the prophesy play. Each horseman set the tone for a given sequence of events. The four horsemen are also connected to the Four Beasts of Daniel, and the four beasts around the thrown of God, with the weapons, colors and animals linking connected prophesies.

For example, the White Horseman, had a bow and arrow. He is connected to the first beast of Daniel, which is a Lion. The White Lion is symbolic of wisdom. The soul of the White Horseman is symbolized by the Divine Woman. The white horseman is wise. The Divine women; white lion is given the wings of eagle. She flies to the place prepared for her. I kept watching until its wings were clipped and it was made to stand on two feet like a man; woman becomes a man. The first act is the story of a spiritual transformation from a virtual/spiritual potentiality, into a physical presence. The White Horseman evolves from the soul of the suffering servant of Daniel.

The White Horseman as the Lion of Daniel, goes out to conquer. He has a golden crown and wisdom. He uses a bow and arrow, long distance weapon with Cupid's arrows. He passes in safety by a way he had not traversed with his feet. It sound like jumping around the internet. His job is to preach a positive message and gather the children of Israel to Jerusalem.

The rapture does not occur until the end act four. In act two, the Servant transforms from the white to the black horseman. His role is now different. As the white horseman his job is to gather the children of the promise and all their neighbors. As the black horseman he becomes their teacher. He is the bear of Daniel, who is built up on one side; two witnesses. The black horseman is the lead witness. Who can stand when he appears. His is like refiners fire and fullers soap. He has a sharp sword, clarifying the truth, as he speaks truth to power.

Act two ends when the preaching is completed. The two witnesses become human sacrifices for guilt. Jesus died on the cross for sin. Even though sin was forgiven, people still felt guilty, for having sinned. They often cannot forgive themselves even of Jesus forgave then. Forgiveness of sin was not quite enough. Act two culminates in a sacrificed to address guilt. After the sacrifice, Guilt like sin, becomes neutralized. After three day the witnesses come back to life and are caught up to the heavens. The Black horseman is the Peg. The entire load was on him, like a heavy coat on a peg. The guilt sacrifice breaks the peg and load falls. Great fear overcomes all, since act three was about to begin.

With sin and guilt both neutralized and forgiven, the false prophet and Anti-Christ can now take root and appear through intrigue. They use the new dogma of the guilt sacrifice as tool to persecute the Saints and anyone who opposes them. Their new set of laws and their revised history is very self serving. Without any need to feel guilty, they are able to recruit followers who find joy in cruelty. They gain power, desecrate the sanctuary fortress and set up the Abomination of desolation. They burn down and destroy the capitalist infrastructure; Whore of Babylon and the smoke of her burning. One then needs to go through the new government to eat and sell. The rest is depressing. Skipping ahead.

The Saints or children are hunted down, jailed and killed. They are the first fruits in the wine press of the wrath of the Lord. When 144000 souls are collected then the rapture begins. This shields the faithful from the wrath. The Fourth Horseman appears. He is called faithful and True. The Servant appears again to gather the children.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

When i was much younger and interested in bible prophesies, I tried to be figure out a way around the warning that says that one is not add or take away any words from the words of the prophesies. Most people either use only selective quotes; take away conflicting words; words are not used, or associates prophesy with specific times and places not written in prophesies; add words.

Instead of a warning I saw the quote as a hint. I figured one way to do this, proper, was to look at the prophesies, as a whole, as a puzzle with all the pieces in the box; bible, but all messed up. I needed spread out all the pieces and then start to pair and connected pieces, until the entire puzzle was built. This way not a single word would be added or taken away.

This idea came to me when home computers were just starting out, so there was not much in the way in software and apps, beyonds simple word processing. So I highlighted my entire bible, like a textbook, picking out every prothesis in both Old and New Testament. I then hired a girl to type it in my floppy disk computer. I printed it out to about 100 plus pages, and cut it all up and spread it over the floor in my living room.

The way approached it was to build around a core; Four Horseman. This was a symbol similar to the four sided Christian cross. The four horsemen were like four acts in the prophesy play. Each horseman set the tone for a given sequence of events. The four horsemen are also connected to the Four Beasts of Daniel, and the four beasts around the thrown of God, with the weapons, colors and animals linking connected prophesies.

For example, the White Horseman, had a bow and arrow. He is connected to the first beast of Daniel, which is a Lion. The White Lion is symbolic of wisdom. The soul of the White Horseman is symbolized by the Divine Woman. The white horseman is wise. The Divine women; white lion is given the wings of eagle. She flies to the place prepared for her. I kept watching until its wings were clipped and it was made to stand on two feet like a man; woman becomes a man. The first act is the story of a spiritual transformation from a virtual/spiritual potentiality, into a physical presence. The White Horseman evolves from the soul of the suffering servant of Daniel.

The White Horseman as the Lion of Daniel, goes out to conquer. He has a golden crown and wisdom. He uses a bow and arrow, long distance weapon with Cupid's arrows. He passes in safety by a way he had not traversed with his feet. It sound like jumping around the internet. His job is to preach a positive message and gather the children of Israel to Jerusalem.

The rapture does not occur until the end act four. In act two, the Servant transforms from the white to the black horseman. His role is now different. As the white horseman his job is to gather the children of the promise and all their neighbors. As the black horseman he becomes their teacher. He is the bear of Daniel, who is built up on one side; two witnesses. The black horseman is the lead witness. Who can stand when he appears. His is like refiners fire and fullers soap. He has a sharp sword, clarifying the truth, as he speaks truth to power.

Act two ends when the preaching is completed. The two witnesses become human sacrifices for guilt. Jesus died on the cross for sin. Even though sin was forgiven, people still felt guilty, for having sinned. They often cannot forgive themselves even of Jesus forgave then. Forgiveness of sin was not quite enough. Act two culminates in a sacrificed to address guilt. After the sacrifice, Guilt like sin, becomes neutralized. After three day the witnesses come back to life and are caught up to the heavens. The Black horseman is the Peg. The entire load was on him, like a heavy coat on a peg. The guilt sacrifice breaks the peg and load falls. Great fear overcomes all, since act three was about to begin.

With sin and guilt both neutralized and forgiven, the false prophet and Anti-Christ can now take root and appear through intrigue. They use the new dogma of the guilt sacrifice as tool to persecute the Saints and anyone who opposes them. Their new set of laws and their revised history is very self serving. Without any need to feel guilty, they are able to recruit followers who find joy in cruelty. They gain power, desecrate the sanctuary fortress and set up the Abomination of desolation. They burn down and destroy the capitalist infrastructure; Whore of Babylon and the smoke of her burning. One then needs to go through the new government to eat and sell. The rest is depressing. Skipping ahead.

The Saints or children are hunted down, jailed and killed. They are the first fruits in the wine press of the wrath of the Lord. When 144000 souls are collected then the rapture begins. This shields the faithful from the wrath. The Fourth Horseman appears. He is called faithful and True. The Servant appears again to gather the children.

So you came up with your own meaning.

The simple answer could be the only person who could open the seals, are the Ones that are Given by God to open them, the ones that fulfilled the Prophecy.

After Jesus, Muhammad gave the final Message of Prophecy, before the Day of God was to arrive and became the 'Seal of the Prophets'. Muhammad is foretold in Bible Scriptures, did your arrangement of prophecy include the Message of Muhammad?

Thus I can point you back to 1260 and 1844.

Unless you ask anything further, I will not post in the OP again, so I wish you all the best, regards Tony

 

[Sand Dancer]

Actually, this is not really true. There is a books from between the 4th and 8th centuries attributed to Ephraem the Syrian that says that believers will be taken out before the tribulation. This book in at least a thousand years earlier than Darby.

Just pointing that out for fairness. I don't have a dog in this fight.

Apocalypse of Pseudo-Ephraem - Wikipedia

I think Darby added tribulation and dispensation. Some Bible verses actually make it sound like the good folks stay on earth, while the bad folks are taken away.