What's wrong with Japan?

[Ðanisty]

Well, I can see that actual comments regarding Lolicon and Shotacon are really important to this debate. :sarcastic

 

[evearael]

I'm addressing sexualized materials geared towards children, and you are addressing sexualized materials geared towards adults. You points are valid, I just don't have the knowledge base to comment appropriately on the points you bring up.

 

[Ðanisty]

I'm addressing sexualized materials geared towards children, and you are addressing sexualized materials geared towards adults. You points are valid, I just don't have the knowledge base to comment appropriately on the points you bring up.

Well, I understand your point. Of course, I brought up my points about Lolicon and Shotacon because that is what the OP was talking about...Faint just didn't know the terminology. Lolicon and Shotacon are not geared towards children which was my point. I guess you are talking about something different, then? I'm quite confused...lol.

It is possible I suppose that Faint has no idea what I'm talking about and is misunderstanding regular anime. I don't find upskirt shots of cartoon teenagers to be pedophiliac (is that a word) though. It's really no different than what we do with teenage pop-stars (except that it might be better since cartoons are not real people). It does need to be pointed out though that Japan doesn't regard cartoons as strictly child entertainment. People of all ages and interests enjoy cartoons. It is perhaps America's assumption that cartoons are for children that is the problem.

 

[Jaymes]

We stared at him as hard as we could. He became irritated and said something under his breath and we all let him have it (verbally, of course). He quickly got off on the next stop.

Eesh, remind me to never let you know where my tastes run.

Just out of curiosity, why do you think that? "Repressed" is the last word I would probably use to describe Japanese sexuality.

Taking baths in a public bath house and making dirty jokes isn't necessarily open about sexuality. Knowing where babies come from isn't necessarily open about sexuality, either. From what I've read, PDAs are very frowned upon, though the current generation is said to be changing that.

Again, though, those are only things I've read. I have the disadvantage of not having the money to go there.

 

[evearael]

Danisty... have you seen Ramna 1/2?

 

[nutshell]

Eesh, remind me to never let you know where my tastes run.

You're right. If you think getting off on playing cards of sexy cartoon girls showing their panties, I don't want to know.

Taking baths in a public bath house and making dirty jokes isn't necessarily open about sexuality. Knowing where babies come from isn't necessarily open about sexuality, either. From what I've read, PDAs are very frowned upon, though the current generation is said to be changing that.

Again, though, those are only things I've read. I have the disadvantage of not having the money to go there.

I'm well aware of what you've posted. I often went to the public bath house and I know this does not equate sexuality.

Is there anything besides PDAs that you consider a part of sexuality?

 

[evearael]

Danisty, I feel that even in some anime designed for older children it goes a bit too far at times... like the occasional uninvited grope in Ranma 1/2.

 

[ΩRôghênΩ]

the japanese do have some strange sexual fantasies...

 

[Faint]

Well, I understand your point. Of course, I brought up my points about Lolicon and Shotacon because that is what the OP was talking about...Faint just didn't know the terminology. Lolicon and Shotacon are not geared towards children which was my point. I guess you are talking about something different, then? I'm quite confused...lol.

It is possible I suppose that Faint has no idea what I'm talking about and is misunderstanding regular anime. I don't find upskirt shots of cartoon teenagers to be pedophiliac (is that a word) though. It's really no different than what we do with teenage pop-stars (except that it might be better since cartoons are not real people). It does need to be pointed out though that Japan doesn't regard cartoons as strictly child entertainment. People of all ages and interests enjoy cartoons. It is perhaps America's assumption that cartoons are for children that is the problem.

Okay, I've never heard those words before, but I'm not talking about cartoons being aimed at kids--when I say mainstream, I'm refering to prime time cartoons aimed at adult viewers which (as far as I know) usually incorporate panty shots of preteens. In other words, the Japanese networks deliberately market their cartoons with pedophiliac appeal (yeah, I'm not sure if pedophiliac is a word either).

Anyway, this is not meant to be xenophobic. I'll be traveling to Japan soon regardless. Tokyo apparently has one hell of a nightlife--can't miss that. And I've heard they LOVE american guys .

 

[Fluffy]

You guys are talking about Lolicon and Shotacon. It's manga (ie: comic book drawings) that depict children involved in sexual situations. The comics themselves aren't for children. Given those two things, I have to say that I don't see how it is abuse. One might find it twisted, but no children are harmed in the making of these comics. Also, they are highly unrealistic. In most of the scenarios, the children are the predators. It is fantasy and nothing else. In fact, if I felt like it (which I do not...maybe someone else does), I could make the argument that such comics help keep people from acting on their urges.

Consideration as to whether paedophiles use lolicon and shotacon to justify their urges towards children or to even perhaps encourage them to act on their urges should not be dismissed, however.

However, I think I agree with you that this sort of material in fact help paedophiles (and many people who are not paedophiles) from harming children. Plus a lot of it isn't really paedophilic. Most fans of shotacon are males themselves and enjoy viewing material of young boys being dominated by older females, perhaps because it helps them to fulfill a fantasy they had when they were growing up.

Okay, I've never heard those words before, but I'm not talking about cartoons being aimed at kids--when I say mainstream, I'm refering to prime time cartoons aimed at adult viewers which (as far as I know) usually incorporate panty shots of preteens. In other words, the Japanese networks deliberately market their cartoons with pedophiliac appeal (yeah, I'm not sure if pedophiliac is a word either).

*shrugs* how can you rate the age of a cartoon? It is legal for women of legal age to dress up in school girl uniforms, a fetish that is incredibly popular in the USA. I view lolicon and shotacon as simply a different cultures solution to the same fetish.

 

[Lost Soul]

Well Japan have certainly been strange since the American influence, though I don't think in general they differ much from anyone else, they are definitely far more polite.

Like Kamikazes weren't strange before the "American influence"?

 

[Feathers in Hair]

Odd... Last I was reading about it, Japan had a very low rate of sexual violence, especially compared with the US and other nations with its same density level. While I don't understand the appeal of hentai (at least not the schoolgirl type, 'cus ick), I don't think that it's more or less disgusting than a lot of the stuff that originates in the U.S.

There's also a myriad variety of anime and manga that do not involve perversion, that explore social themes and morality, history and spirituality. I'd be saddened if this particular art form was branded as being all the same, especially if it were branded morally bankrupt.

 

[Mathematician]

I don't get why someone would worry about cartoon porn when there are some who claim 30-50% of girls in porn are actually under the age of 18. That's a scary thought, considering how varied porn has become these days (urinating on people, "fake rape", bondage...)

 

[ChrisP]

Regarding sexuality, most asian cultures are usually open to it at quite a young age in comparison to the ages in western cultures. Is this healthy or unhealthy? I'm not sure. But of the women I've been with, the asian ones were definitely the most relaxed in the relationship, both in bed and out.

 

[Feathers in Hair]

Eesh, remind me to never let you know where my tastes run.

Hehee, same here. Handsome bishounen with their shirts undone! *happy sigh* Whoops, just let on where my tastes run. Hope it doesn't get out! )(

 

[evearael]

I certainly didn't mean to give the impression that all anime is inappropriate. I've learned Japanese, been to Japan and absolutely adore anime and manga. (Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex - Second Gig = Glee!) However, part of what I adore about manga and anime is that much of it is geared towards adults. I just feel that in some cases it goes too far for an audience too young.

 

[ChrisP]

I certainly didn't mean to give the impression that all anime is inappropriate. I've learned Japanese, been to Japan and absolutely adore anime and manga. (Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex - Second Gig = Glee!) However, part of what I adore about manga and anime is that much of it is geared towards adults. I just feel that in some cases it goes too far for an audience too young.

Testify to that! There's nudity, sex scenes and general carnage on anime TV for elementary pupils at around 4 in the afternoon.

 

[Booko]

Don't fool yourself, most women you know have been raped, molested, sexually assaulted, etc. right here in America. The official numbers are one and four girls before the age of eighteen... though of all the women I've had this conversation with only one had never had this experience. This is an epidemic.

It's up to 1 in 4 now? Sheesh, decades ago it was only 1 in 7. Or maybe women just didn't want to admit it then, or there was a lame definition of what constitutes sexual assault.

I can't think of any woman under 60 I've known well enough to have this conversation with that hasn't been raped or sexually assaulted.

Yeah, I'd call that an epidemic.

 

[Quoth The Raven]

Like Kamikazes weren't strange before the "American influence"?

They have a very strong sense of duty and the consequences - to everyone, not just themselves - of shirking it...because you don't understand the motivations doesn't necessarily make it strange.

 

[Ðanisty]

Danisty... have you seen Ramna 1/2?

No, but I know the basic premise of it. I have watched Inu-Yasha and that's by the same person.

The thing is, anime that isn't geared towards Japanese children is brought over here and geared towards American kids. Stuff like Sailor Moon looks like it's for children, but the original material is not quite appropriate for young kids. In fact, the only anime I can think of that is appropriate for young kids is the stuff by Miyazaki.

By the way, if you guys think that anime with upskirt shots of teenage girls is pedophiliac, then I think you don't really know the alternatives. When I mentioned Lolicon and Shotacon, I was talking about manga that has characters in it anywhere from about 7 years old to about 13 years old. Anything over that isn't really considered "pedophiliac" in any way that I know of. At that point, it's just eye candy of high school girls and is pretty much considered "free game."

Most fans of shotacon are males themselves and enjoy viewing material of young boys being dominated by older females, perhaps because it helps them to fulfill a fantasy they had when they were growing up.

Really? Of course, you're talking about straight shota. Most of the time shota is gay-oriented in which case I would think most of the fans would be women. Afterall Yaoi is drawn and read pretty much exclusively by females. You bring up a fantastic point though. I have talked to many fans of Lolicon and Shotacon and lots of them, when fantasizing about this stuff, fantasize about taking the child's role as opposed to taking the adult role.

*shrugs* how can you rate the age of a cartoon? It is legal for women of legal age to dress up in school girl uniforms, a fetish that is incredibly popular in the USA. I view lolicon and shotacon as simply a different cultures solution to the same fetish.

I agree and this was sort of the point I was trying to make earlier.