What Trinitarian churches teach about the Trinity

[Soapy]

That's a good question, why?
Dealing with the first part first, trinitarians don't fully understand so why must you?
Ask people to explain the atonement and we see a similar thing.
As to why are people labeled as heretic, I have wondered the same myself. I have even seen it said that the deity of Jesus and trinity are the most important concepts in Christianity. It has made me wonder at times.
I have seen in the Bible that believing that Jesus is the Son of God is how we are saved (John 20:31) and that this has to be the Son of God that we can call "my God" (John 20:28) not just "a son of God" like we all are.
I have also seen that doctrines are connected in the Bible and if someone thinks that Jesus is just "a son of God" it usually means that their understanding of other important things are off.



Now you are turning it into a joke when all I am saying is that the Father is not the Son in Trinity theology but the Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father and the Father and Son are one (one thing). These are things that Jesus said. (if you deny that Jesus said that the Father and Son are one (one thing) then you should look at the grammar and the meaning of "one" in the neuter.)

Brian2, ‘Jesus and the Father are one IN AGREEMENT’.

The Son believes in what the Father taught him… and the Father approves of what the Son is doing.

This is what it means by:

• ‘I am in the Father… and the Father is in me’ … if you see what I am doing THEN you also see what the Father IS LIKE BECAUSE the Father sent me to do HIS WORKS
• ‘IF I AM NOT DOING HIS WORKS THEN DO NOT BELIEVE ME’!!!
• ‘He who believes in me ALSO believes in the Father because HE SENT ME [with HIS Testimony (Rev 1:1)]’

Brian2, what does this verse say to you?? What do you understand from it:

• ‘On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.’ (John 14:20)
• ‘Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.’ (John 17:21)

 

[Soapy]

Those 2 times that "other" are used in what you quoted, "other" is not in the original text in those places.
The Watchtower used to put "other" in brackets in those places so that everyone would know that those words are not in the original text, now they have removed the brackets and pretend that they are not changing the meaning by using "other".
They lie about the meaning of "firstborn" and say that it can only mean "first one born of a kind", but that is not true as Psalm 89:26,27 has Jesus being appointed as firstborn. You don't get appointed to be the first one born, you get born before the others.
"Firstborn" at Col 1:15 and Psalm 89:26,27 are showing Jesus authority, not in which order He was born.
If the uncreated prehuman Jesus became a man, it means that He stepped into the creation without being created.

So, Brian2, you are “caught between a rock and a hard place”!!

You agree that Jesus Christ is NOT the FIRST TO BE BORN OF GOD…

… but you agree that Jesus Christ is ‘firstborn’ in AUTHORITY.

So you have a dilemma.

Hmmm…. How are you going to resolve it???

I’ll help you to find the truth:
THERE ARE TWO SEPARATE WORDS:

1. FIRST BORN - a CHRONOLOGICAL BIRTH ORDER
   1. Say it as two separate words…
2. FIRSTBORN - The MOST BELOVED of the Father
   1. Say it as one word

In the scriptures, the FIRST BORN SON is ALSO the FIRSTBORN …

Can you see that? The son who ‘opens the womb’ is the glory (most beloved - Firstborn) of the Father’.

Which Son inherited the lions share of the fathers estate? Isn’t it the Son who is the MOST BELOVED of the Father - NOT NECESSARILY THE SON BORN FIRST!!!! Can you show any examples where this is true from Scriptures? (Hint: There are plenty of examples!… Seth, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, David, Solomon… Jesus Christ!!)

The trinitarian translators chose the SIMILAR words because it aided their fallacy cause but anyone with intelligence and wisdom can easily see that they are TWO entirely different MEANINGS!!! Are you wise, do you have the intelligence to see that? Great, if you do!!!

 

[cataway]

The watchtower version says, “other things were created “. Valid versions of the Bible do not insert the word other.

perhaps you would like the NIV ''The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.''

 

[Soapy]

or even Proverbs 8 :22 Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way,The earliest of his achievements of long ago.23 From ancient times I was installed,From the start, from times earlier than the earth.

WISDOM… GOD used WISDOM when he created all things….

Who creates anything GODLY and worthy WITHOUT using WISDOM?!

 

[cataway]

1 Corinthians 2:7​

WISDOM… GOD used WISDOM when he created all things….

Who creates anything GODLY and worthy WITHOUT using WISDOM?!

apparently, anyone believing in the Trinity

 

[shunyadragon]

Basically all the Protestant Churches teach the Trinity in the same manner based on the same references of the Bible, and the traditional doctrines establish by the Councils of the Roman Church.

There is, of course, contentious debate over the centuries and here and a few non-trinitarian churches have formed,

I personally do not believe anybody knows the nature of God.

 

[shunyadragon]

I don’t make a big deal if people think differently. we are all free-will spirits.

When people say “they can’t know who God is” when it simply says “God is love”, and other such statement, why argue about it?

. . . because the simple statement "God is love." is not an adequate description of God.

I do not believe any fallible human can "know" who God is,

 

[Soapy]

Basically all the Protestant Churches teach the Trinity in the same manner based on the same references of the Bible, and the traditional doctrines establish by the Councils of the Roman Church.

There is, of course, contentious debate over the centuries and here and a few non-trinitarian churches have formed,

I personally do not believe anybody knows the nature of God.

The scriptures tells us all about the nature of God: YHWH; The Father.

If you do not believe that it is so then you can only believe that Jesus Christ LIED to the Almighty God, the Father, when he prayed saying:

• “I have revealed you to them, and I will continue to do so. Then your love for me will be in them, and I will be in them.”” (John 17:26)
• “I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.” (John 17:6)

 

[Kenny]

. . . because the simple statement "God is love." is not an adequate description of God.

God is love is not a description - it is a statement of being. From the position of who He is, you can add descriptions.

I do not believe any fallible human can "know" who God is,

That’s fine… no one is requiring you to believe so. All I said was basically that I don’t argue when there is a clear statement

 

[Spice]

So, Brian2, you are “caught between a rock and a hard place”!!

You agree that Jesus Christ is NOT the FIRST TO BE BORN OF GOD…

… but you agree that Jesus Christ is ‘firstborn’ in AUTHORITY.

So you have a dilemma.

Hmmm…. How are you going to resolve it???

I’ll help you to find the truth:
THERE ARE TWO SEPARATE WORDS:

1. FIRST BORN- a CHRONOLOGICAL BIRTH ORDER
   1. Say it as two separate words…
2. FIRSTBORN- The MOST BELOVED of the Father
   1. Say it as one word

In the scriptures, the FIRST BORN SON is ALSO the FIRSTBORN …

Can you see that? The son who ‘opens the womb’ is the glory (most beloved - Firstborn) of the Father’.

Which Son inherited the lions share of the fathers estate? Isn’t it the Son who is the MOST BELOVED of the Father - NOT NECESSARILY THE SON BORN FIRST!!!! Can you show any examples where this is true from Scriptures? (Hint: There are plenty of examples!… Seth, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, David, Solomon… Jesus Christ!!)

The trinitarian translators chose the SIMILAR words because it aided their fallacy cause but anyone with intelligence and wisdom can easily see that they are TWO entirely different MEANINGS!!! Are you wise, do you have the intelligence to see that? Great, if you do!!!

I'm a believer in reincarnation, as a continuing educational journey through this world until a "soul" reaches perfection. In this belief I find it plausible that the "soul" that was incarnate in the man Jesus was the same "soul" incarnate in first man, aka Adam. Jesus is also named the firstborn of the dead, the first "soul" to reach that perfection by conquering the world, and achieving "final resurrection" back to the Father's side.

That is the importance of the resurrection story in my opinion -- it CAN be done. Jesus showed us The Way, and we can do it, too, if we believe him.

 

[jimb]

Basically all the Protestant Churches teach the Trinity in the same manner based on the same references of the Bible, and the traditional doctrines establish by the Councils of the Roman Church.

There is, of course, contentious debate over the centuries and here and a few non-trinitarian churches have formed,

I personally do not believe anybody knows the nature of God.

I clearly understand why you wrote the last sentence!

Many believers, including myself, know the nature of God. He is our loving "Abba" father, who gave His Son as a sacrifice for the forgiveness of our sins, enabling Him to adopt us as His children. And He gave us the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth until we are resurrected to be with Him for eternity.

 

[jimb]

. . . because the simple statement "God is love." is not an adequate description of God.

I do not believe any fallible human can "know" who God is,

All born-again Christians know that God is our Father.

 

[Kenny]

All born-again Christians know that God is our Father.

His Spirit bears witness our spirits that we are the children of God

 

[InChrist]

perhaps you would like the NIV ''The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.''

Yes, I like that passage because it reveals the eternal existence of the Son and His preeminence over all creation …


“The description "firstborn of all creation" speaks of Christ’s preexistence. He is not a creature but the eternal Creator (John 1:10). God created the world through Christ and redeemed the world through Christ (Hebrews 1:2-4).

Note that Jesus is called the firstborn, not the first-created. The word "firstborn" (Greek word "prototokos") signifies priority. In the culture of the Ancient Near East, the firstborn was not necessarily the oldest child. firstborn referred not to birth order but to rank. The firstborn possessed the inheritance and leadership.

Therefore, the phrase expresses Christ’s sovereignty over creation. After resurrecting Jesus from the dead, God gave Him authority over the Earth (Matthew 28:18). Jesus created the world, saved the world, and rules the world. He is the self-existent, acknowledged Head of creation.”

What does it mean that Jesus is the “firstborn” over Creation? | GotQuestions.org

What does it mean that Jesus is the “firstborn” over Creation? Does Jesus being the firstborn / first-born mean that He was born?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[Soapy]

Yes, I like that passage because it reveals the eternal existence of the Son and His the preeminence over all creation …


“The description "firstborn of all creation" speaks of Christ’s preexistence. He is not a creature but the eternal Creator (John 1:10). God created the world through Christ and redeemed the world through Christ (Hebrews 1:2-4).

Note that Jesus is called the firstborn, not the first-created. The word "firstborn" (Greek word "prototokos") signifies priority. In the culture of the Ancient Near East, the firstborn was not necessarily the oldest child. firstborn referred not to birth order but to rank. The firstborn possessed the inheritance and leadership.

Therefore, the phrase expresses Christ’s sovereignty over creation. After resurrecting Jesus from the dead, God gave Him authority over the Earth (Matthew 28:18). Jesus created the world, saved the world, and rules the world. He is the self-existent, acknowledged Head of creation.”

What does it mean that Jesus is the “firstborn” over Creation? | GotQuestions.org

What does it mean that Jesus is the “firstborn” over Creation? Does Jesus being the firstborn / first-born mean that He was born?

www.gotquestions.org

If Jesus created the world and IS GOD then why IS GOD granting Jesus the rulership over creation?

Was the world NOT a belonging of him who created it?

Did Jesus create the world as an order from someone else … who then granted it to Jesus to rule over?

Surely then, Jesus cannot be God if there was a HIGHER AUTHORITY who commanded him to create it?

But if Jesus IS GOD then ‘No one can snatch it out of my hands’… but it seems you are saying someone else with higher authority did snatch it from him - only to give it back(???!!!! Where is that written to say so?) for Jesus to rule over.

Moreover, the kingdom of the creation is FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR LESS than the kingdom of Heaven.

So if Jesus WAS GOD when he created all things - and was ruler over both Heaven and earth….THEN please explain how Jesus now accepts a FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR LOWER kingdom than the one he previously ruled over!

God of Heaven…. Almighty, eternal, immutable…
Now God of the creation - mighty but not Almighty… NOW IS ETERNAL… MUTATED MANY TIMES…

The Father: God almighty… Spirit ruling an unmeasurable Spirit kingdom —-

Jesus Christ: A Man ruling a fathomable FLESH kingdom ….

Explain?? Please…..

 

[Soapy]

I'm a believer in reincarnation, as a continuing educational journey through this world until a "soul" reaches perfection. In this belief I find it plausible that the "soul" that was incarnate in the man Jesus was the same "soul" incarnate in first man, aka Adam. Jesus is also named the firstborn of the dead, the first "soul" to reach that perfection by conquering the world, and achieving "final resurrection" back to the Father's side.

That is the importance of the resurrection story in my opinion -- it CAN be done. Jesus showed us The Way, and we can do it, too, if we believe him.

I think you missed the point of this aspect of the debate….

It’s about the words : ‘FIRSTBORN’ and ‘FIRST BORN’.

Please reread the post and respond to its content please. It’s got nothing to do with reincarnation and that is just a complete distraction from what was being debated. Please start a new thread if you want to talk about that!

 

[jimb]

Basically all the Protestant Churches teach the Trinity in the same manner based on the same references of the Bible, and the traditional doctrines establish by the Councils of the Roman Church.

There is, of course, contentious debate over the centuries and here and a few non-trinitarian churches have formed,

I personally do not believe anybody knows the nature of God.

Speak for yourself. Those of us who are born again, in Christ, God's adopted children, know the nature of God.

 

[Spice]

I think you missed the point of this aspect of the debate….

It’s about the words : ‘FIRSTBORN’ and ‘FIRST BORN’.

Please reread the post and respond to its content please. It’s got nothing to do with reincarnation and that is just a complete distraction from what was being debated. Please start a new thread if you want to talk about that!

Excuse me, but this is an open Biblical Debate, and I am permitted to speak my opinion as I choose, am I not?

I was responding to the word first-born as in Rev 1:5 ... and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and speaking to Adam as first man. But you could also refer to Psalms 89 and David as God's firstborn. The "soul" of the man we know as Jesus was not new to this world. He wondrously completed his journey - FIRST.

I don't believe I missed the point. I believe I nailed it, and perhaps that's a little scary? If my post is a distraction, you should have just moved on and ignored it. Instead you draw attention to it and provoke a re-address. Now that you have succeeded in bringing my opinion back to the forefront of the thread - where I would be the first to say it does not belong - what will you do next?

-- carry on in peace.

 

[Soapy]

Excuse me, but this is an open Biblical Debate, and I am permitted to speak my opinion as I choose, am I not?

I was responding to the word first-born as in Rev 1:5 ... and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and speaking to Adam as first man. But you could also refer to Psalms 89 and David as God's firstborn. The "soul" of the man we know as Jesus was not new to this world. He wondrously completed his journey - FIRST.

I don't believe I missed the point. I believe I nailed it, and perhaps that's a little scary? If my post is a distraction, you should have just moved on and ignored it. Instead you draw attention to it and provoke a re-address. Now that you have succeeded in bringing my opinion back to the forefront of the thread - where I would be the first to say it does not belong - what will you do next?

-- carry on in peace.

Firstborn or first born has nothing at all to do with reincarnation.

I’m not sure what you think you’ve ‘nailed’ since no one has ever believed in what you claimed that Jesus is a reincarnation of anything of anyone……

That’s why I said to start anew thread to discuss it / it DESERVES its OWN THREAD as a topic if you feel that it’s something worth ‘Nailing’!!

Do you wanna do that… and try to get posters here to REPLY to you about it rather than being a complete niche non-entity point that you believe in.

 

[Spice]

Firstborn or first born has nothing at all to do with reincarnation.

Incorrect

I’m not sure what you think you’ve ‘nailed’ since no one has ever believed in what you claimed that Jesus is a reincarnation of anything of anyone……

Incorrect

That’s why I said to start anew thread to discuss it / it DESERVES its OWN THREAD as a topic if you feel that it’s something worth ‘Nailing’!!

Not necessary

Do you wanna do that… and try to get posters here to REPLY to you about it rather than being a complete niche non-entity point that you believe in.

Not necessary
All beliefs are valid here on this thread, if Bible-based, which mine are, but I need not debate nor even discuss them with those not interested.
Tootle-loo