What is your opinion of Jesus?

[Trailblazer]

In my opinion, as the Messiah is a Jewish case and hypothesis, they are the best to interpret the requirements. We have seen how badly the gospel authors have misinterpreted "prophecies".
Anyway, for many of the criteria and especially for Zechariah 8:23 there can be no misinterpretation.

The Messiah is not solely a Jewish case and hypothesis, so they are not the best to interpret the requirements.
The Messiah is not coming to restore the Jews to their former position of chosen ones. He is a world redeemer.

All the major world religions are expecting a Messiah, a world redeemer, who will come in the End Times. Certain religious believers such as the Jews and Christians believe that this Messiah will meet their expectations and restore their religion to its former glory, and He will even vindicate their religion as being the one true religion. Obviously it is impossible that all the religions are right about what this Messiah will be like and what he will do, because these religions all have different expectations of this Messiah.

Bible prophecies can be interpreted in many different ways, so they can have many meanings, so they can be made to mean what people want them to mean so that Messiah will be what they want Him to be.

Below are two websites that cover the prophecies of the major religions and what they believe the Messiah will be.

Prophecies from World Religion and other sources

Prophecy Fulfilled Webpage

 

[Trailblazer]

How do you decide what's true and what isn't from the same source?

I decide based upon what it says in the Baha'i Writings, since that is my religion.
I also decide based upon logic and reason.

 

[Ajax]

There will never be universal worldwide acceptance of the Jewish God and the Jewish religion, and there are no verses that say that will happen.
None of the cited verses say that there will be universal worldwide acceptance of the Jewish God and the Jewish religion.

Jewish "prophets" wrote about the criteria for the Messiah guided by God and/or Trinity for those who believe it. There were no other religions in these times in Israel, and their "prophecies" are accepted by both Jews and Christians.

Here we go...

Isaiah 2:2-3 " It shall come to pass in the latter days
that the mountain of the house of the Lord
shall be established as the highest of the mountains,
and shall be raised above the hills;
and all the nations shall flow to it,
3 and many peoples shall come, and say:
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the house of the God of Jacob;
that he may teach us his ways
and that we may walk in his paths.”

Isaiah 11:10
In that day the root of Jesse shall stand as an ensign to the peoples; him shall the nations seek, and his dwellings shall be glorious.

Isaiah 66:23
From new moon to new moon, and from sabbath to sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, says the Lord.

Micah 4:2-3
It shall come to pass in the latter days
that the mountain of the house of the Lord
shall be established as the highest of the mountains,
and shall be raised up above the hills;
and peoples shall flow to it,
2 and many nations shall come, and say:
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the house of the God of Jacob;
that he may teach us his ways
and we may walk in his paths.”
(Copied from Isaiah or vice versa)

Zechariah 14:9
And the Lord will become king over all the earth; on that day the Lord will be one and his name one.

 

[InChrist]

Of course it is. John 3:16 gives half the message. 3:18 gives the rest. It seems quite disingenuous that Christians will ALWAYS quote the first, but NEVER the latter.....

No, most Christians read or quote passages in their context. I do anyway…

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.” John 3:16-21

Everyone falls short of God’s perfection and goodness. Everyone selfishly sins against God and others, therefore everyone is perishing. Jesus demonstrated His love and offers eternal freedom from sin, eternal life, and eternal love.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm still waiting for anyone to prove those people to be liars.

That's not how it works. Since you are making the claim you are the one who has the burden of proof.

 

[Laniakea]

That's not how it works. Since you are making the claim you are the one who has the burden of proof.

Already done.
Still waiting for anyone wishing to refute what the Bible says to prove their POV.

 

[Trailblazer]

Sometimes judgement is needed. "Anything goes" doesn't work out so well, for children OR for society in general.

I agree with that. Since my religion is a religion of laws I definitely do not believe in the "anything goes" philosophy.

 

[Ajax]

The Messiah is not solely a Jewish case and hypothesis, so they are not the best to interpret the requirements.
The Messiah is not coming to restore the Jews to their former position of chosen ones. He is a world redeemer.

It is solely a Jewish case, borrowed by Christianity in order to proselytize Jews.
We are talking about the Jewish Messiah and the requirements for him as they appear in the Old testament written on about 500 BC.
We are not interested in the present discussion about saviors of other religions.

 

[Trailblazer]

Already done.
Still waiting for anyone wishing to refute what the Bible says to prove their POV.

It is not already done because a book that says something happened is not proof that it ever happened.
Anyone can write a book with stories that says there were eyewitnesses but that does not mean the stories are true stories.

 

[Laniakea]

It is not already done because a book that says something happened is not proof that it ever happened.
Anyone can write a book with stories that says there were eyewitnesses but that does not mean the stories are true stories.

Then how do the Baha'i Writings differ in that way?

 

[Trailblazer]

Jewish "prophets" wrote about the criteria for the Messiah guided by God and/or Trinity for those who believe it. There were no other religions in these times in Israel, and their "prophecies" are accepted by both Jews and Christians.

Here we go...

Isaiah 2:2-3 " It shall come to pass in the latter days
that the mountain of the house of the Lord
shall be established as the highest of the mountains,
and shall be raised above the hills;
and all the nations shall flow to it,
3 and many peoples shall come, and say:
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the house of the God of Jacob;
that he may teach us his ways
and that we may walk in his paths.”

Isaiah 11:10
In that day the root of Jesse shall stand as an ensign to the peoples; him shall the nations seek, and his dwellings shall be glorious.

Isaiah 66:23
From new moon to new moon, and from sabbath to sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, says the Lord.

Micah 4:2-3
It shall come to pass in the latter days
that the mountain of the house of the Lord
shall be established as the highest of the mountains,
and shall be raised up above the hills;
and peoples shall flow to it,
2 and many nations shall come, and say:
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the house of the God of Jacob;
that he may teach us his ways
and we may walk in his paths.”
(Copied from Isaiah or vice versa)

Zechariah 14:9
And the Lord will become king over all the earth; on that day the Lord will be one and his name one.

These prophecies have already been fulfilled by the coming of Baha'u'llah.
This is all explained in the book entitled Thief in the Night by William Sears.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then how do the Baha'i Writings differ in that way?

In what way? I lost track of what we were discussing.

 

[Ajax]

Bible prophecies can be interpreted in many different ways, so they can have many meanings, so they can be made to mean what people want them to mean so that Messiah will be what they want Him to be.

Since you didn't answer on what I asked you, please tell me what is misinterpreted in this verse..
"Thus says the Lord of hosts: In those days ten men from the nations of every tongue shall take hold of the robe of a Jew, saying, ‘Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you”.
Do you consider Zechariah a pseudo-prophet? Because if you do, you also inevitably admit that the Old Testament contains lies.

 

[Ajax]

These prophecies have already been fulfilled by the coming of Baha'u'llah.

So Jesus is not the Messiah according to you.
Who is Baha'u'llah?

 

[Laniakea]

In what way? I lost track of what we were discussing.

You said the writings of Baha'i is what you believed, but then said that things written in a "book that says something happened is not proof that it ever happened. Anyone can write a book with stories that says there were eyewitnesses but that does not mean the stories are true stories."

I'm asking how Baha'i writings are something you believe is proof, but not the writings in the Bible.

 

[Firenze]

Many of those verses you listed have been misinterpreted by the Jewish people.
That's why the Jewish people are still waiting for a messiah they imagine who will never come and live up to what they believe those verses mean.

There will never be universal worldwide acceptance of the Jewish God and the Jewish religion, and there are no verses that say that will happen.
None of the cited verses say that there will be universal worldwide acceptance of the Jewish God and the Jewish religion.

So only a fringe group of disaffected Messianic Jews managed to interpret correctly. That requires a pretty credulous mind, I think. Especially in light of the obvious frauds committed by the gospel authors.

 

[Trailblazer]

Since you didn't answer on what I asked you, please tell me what is misinterpreted in this verse..
"Thus says the Lord of hosts: In those days ten men from the nations of every tongue shall take hold of the robe of a Jew, saying, ‘Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you”.
Do you consider Zechariah a pseudo-prophet? Because if you do, you also inevitably admit that the Old Testament contains lies.

No, I do not consider Zechariah a pseudo-prophet. On the other hand, I do not believe he is the one who wrote that verse, so that opens up a can of worms.

I did not reply to that because I don't know what that verse means. Remember when I told you I am not very familiar with the Bible?

That said, the verse is definitely subject to different interpretations.

"In those days" What are those days?

 

[InChrist]

Is 53 is in 4 parts. Scholars have long recognized that the 1st 3 are clearly about Israel. It's only the NT authors that want to pretend that all of a sudden, the 4th part is about the Messiah. Again, the Jewish experts disagree. Further, its the fraud of Is 7:14 that most loudly condemns the NT and its pretense that this is even about a virgin birth, much less about the Messiah. And ALL the first followers were Messianic Jews - desperate for the Messiah to show up. It was so bad that in the times before and after Jesus, you couldn't turn a corner in Jerusalem without bumping into a Messiah claimant. These Jews knew the actual attributes of the Messiah - but chose to lie about them instead. Inventing their own 'prophesies' like the spurious Is 7:14 and squeezing Jesus into them long after his death. Ya know, my old bible from the 50's tried to claim that Jesus fulfilled the 'prophesy' of being from 'Nazareth' - by citing a verse from Micah about 'Nazarites'. But here, decades later, they have removed that citation. Why? Perhaps they had a moment of conscience and opted to correct such an obvious error. Or perhaps they just tired of having bible scholars point out that it was NOT a prophesy, NOT Messianic, and not even a very good lie.

Look, I get it. No facts are going to change the mind of anyone that has been duped for most of their lives, especially if they are slaves to a lust for the promise of eternal life. I post for those with open minds and a sincere desire to know the bible. So, I'll keep on speaking Truth, and you can keep taking comfort in the apologetics, like the far fetched claim that the Jews who wrote the prophesies of the Messiah were somehow too stupid to recognize him. Ay caramba..... I don't know about you, but if I wanted to know what Fahrenheit 451 was about, I wouldn't seek out Gore Vidal - when I could have simply asked Vonnegut.

I don’t dispute that Isaiah 53 has application to the nation of Israel. Nevertheless, I think there are many OT passages which have dual application, especially in reference to the Messiah, that were or will be fulfilled by Jesus Christ.
And no, not all Jewish expert scholars disagree….

“There have been many great rabbis among the Jews who came to faith in Jesus. But you have probably never heard of them, since the Jewish community casts them out and slanders them as soon as it comes to light that they believe in Jesus. When these rabbis were a part of the Jewish community, they were considered righteous and well-respected, but as soon as their faith in Jesus the Messiah became known, they were despised and considered traitors; sinners, fools and gentiles. Here are just a few of them – if you thought that there are no rabbis who believe in Jesus, you are in for a surprise!
Have you, for example, ever heard of Rabbi Dr. Daniel Zion, Chief Rabbi of the Bulgarian Jewish community during the Holocaust? He took part in rescuing hundreds of Jews from the death camps, and helped them get to Israel and settle there after the war. But today, his name is almost unknown among Jews. Why?
The answer is simple, because Daniel Zion was a Rabbi who came to faith in Jesus the Messiah. In 1954 he was offered a very important position as a judge in the Rabbinic Court of Jerusalem, but it was under the condition that he keep his faith secret and not speak about it with anyone. Rabbi Zion documented his response: “I am willing to give up any type of worldly honor for my Messiah.” As soon as he said that, he was no longer considered a rabbi, but a gentile and a traitor. However, the Bulgarian Jewish community in Jaffa continued to accept him as the leader of their synagogue. Rabbi Daniel Zion died in 1979, at age 96, while standing strong in his faith and loyalty to Jesus.

If you had a chance to study modern history of the Far East, you might have heard of Schereschewsky. Schereschewsky founded a University in Shanghai, and translated the Old Testament into Chinese. You probably had no idea that his full name was Samuel Isaac Joseph Schereschewsky, and that he was born to an Jewish Orthodox family. He successfully completed his studies in the University of Breslau, and came to the conclusion that Jesus is the Messiah.
And what about Rabbi Stern, who was a rabbinic scholar, known for his sharp knowledge of the Talmud?”

And more…

If Jesus is the Messiah, How Come No Rabbis Believe in Him? – ONE FOR ISRAEL Ministry

www.oneforisrael.org

 

[Trailblazer]

So Jesus is not the Messiah according to you.

Jesus was 'a Messiah' but Jesus was never slated by God to be 'the Messiah' of the latter days.

Who is Baha'u'llah?

Baháʼu'lláh (born Ḥusayn-ʻAlí; 12 November 1817 – 29 May 1892) was the founder of the Baháʼí Faith. He was born to an aristocratic family in Persia and was exiled due to his adherence to the messianic Bábí Faith. In 1863, in Iraq, he first announced his claim to a revelation from God and spent the rest of his life in further imprisonment in the Ottoman Empire. His teachings revolved around the principles of unity and religious renewal, ranging from moral and spiritual progress to world governance.[1]

Baháʼu'lláh - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Baha'u'llah claimed to be the return of Christ, the Comforter and the Spirit of truth, and the Father foretold by Isaiah.

“O kings of Christendom! Heard ye not the saying of Jesus, the Spirit of God, “I go away, and come again unto you”? Wherefore, then, did ye fail, when He did come again unto you in the clouds of heaven, to draw nigh unto Him, that ye might behold His face, and be of them that attained His Presence? In another passage He saith: “When He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth.” And yet, behold how, when He did bring the truth, ye refused to turn your faces towards Him, and persisted in disporting yourselves with your pastimes and fancies. Ye welcomed Him not, neither did ye seek His Presence, that ye might hear the verses of God from His own mouth, and partake of the manifold wisdom of the Almighty, the All-Glorious, the All-Wise.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 246

“We, in truth, have sent Him Whom We aided with the Holy Spirit (Jesus Christ) that He may announce unto you this Light that hath shone forth from the horizon of the will of your Lord, the Most Exalted, the All-Glorious, and Whose signs have been revealed in the West. Set your faces towards Him (Bahá’u’lláh) on this Day which God hath exalted above all other days, and whereon the All-Merciful hath shed the splendour of His effulgent glory upon all who are in heaven and all who are on earth.”
Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 18

“This is, truly, that which the Spirit of God (Jesus Christ) hath announced, when He came with truth unto you, He with Whom the Jewish doctors disputed, till at last they perpetrated what hath made the Holy Spirit to lament, and the tears of them that have near access to God to flow….”
Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 19

“The Word which the Son concealed is made manifest. It hath been sent down in the form of the human temple in this day. Blessed be the Lord Who is the Father! He, verily, is come unto the nations in His most great majesty.”
Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 84-85

“This is the Father foretold by Isaiah, and the Comforter concerning Whom the Spirit had covenanted with you. Open your eyes, O concourse of bishops, that ye may behold your Lord seated upon the Throne of might and glory.”
The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 63

 

[Firenze]

No, most Christians read or quote passages in their context. I do anyway…

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.” John 3:16-21

Everyone falls short of God’s perfection and goodness. Everyone selfishly sins against God and others, therefore everyone is perishing. Jesus demonstrated His love and offers eternal freedom from sin, eternal life, and eternal love.

Nothing you posted negates the fact that if you believe you have everlasting life, and if you don’t, you’re condemned. Condemned to what? A week in Fiji?