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What is fundamentalism?

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Is Fundamentalism something that crosses religious lines? If so, what characterizes it?

I have heard certain Hindu groups refered to as "Hindu fundamentalists", certain Jewish groups refered to as "Jewish fundamentalists", certain Muslim groups refered to as "Muslim fundamentalists", and, of course, certain Christian groups refered to as "Christian fundamentalists". This suggests that there is something all these groups have in common, despite their being of different faiths. What is that something they have in common?
 

Feathers in Hair

World's Tallest Hobbit
There are also Pagan fundamentalists. (Wish there weren't, but ah, well.)

It's my opinion that the common thread in all these groups is a complete lack of a willingness to acknowledge that a person other than themselves (or their group) can be right. I also tend to associate it with not having any empathy toward others.
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
Fundalmentalists! I have to laugh, because your typo just about somes it up (the spelling is fundamentalists).

Fundal - relating to the bottom (Fundus is Latin for bottom)
Mental - relating to the mind

So, a fundalmentalist might well be one with their mind in their bottom and as far as I can see, a fundamentalist isn't much different. (Hopefully someone else will give you a less flippant reply, given time, but I just couldn't resist).

James
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
Sunstone,

Damn, now you've gone and corrected your typo and ruined my joke! I assure everyone who reads this subsequently that the 'l' was there originally and I'm not a raving lunatic.

James
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
IacobPersul said:
Sunstone,

Damn, now you've gone and corrected your typo and ruined my joke! I assure everyone who reads this subsequently that the 'l' was there originally and I'm not a raving lunatic.

James
That's true, James, I originally spelled it "fundalmentalists" but caught my mistake and changed it.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
IacobPersul said:
Fundalmentalists! I have to laugh, because your typo just about somes it up (the spelling is fundamentalists).

Fundal - relating to the bottom (Fundus is Latin for bottom)
Mental - relating to the mind

So, a fundalmentalist might well be one with their mind in their bottom and as far as I can see, a fundamentalist isn't much different. (Hopefully someone else will give you a less flippant reply, given time, but I just couldn't resist).

James
James, thank you for the laugh -mind in their bottoms indeed!! :biglaugh: Definitely worth Fruballs!

I am not sure there is much more to add, Feathers and you have pretty well covered the topic; nice posts both of you!;)
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Is there a common psychology to all fundamentalists, regardless of their individual faiths?
 

Feathers in Hair

World's Tallest Hobbit
IacobPersul said:
I assure everyone who reads this subsequently that the 'l' was there originally and I'm not a raving lunatic.
By the frubals he was given for having pointed that out, I will vouch for that!

I should add, for my own worry about offending people, that by fundamentalists, I'm not referring to anyone who would come on the forums. The people I percieve as being fundamentalists would be the people that would not even want to associate with RF, just in case we might make them think differently. They might drop by long enough to shout 'you're all wrong!' but then we're annoying chipper and nice to them.

Just so no one thinks I'm trying to be mean to them. :eek:
 

Feathers in Hair

World's Tallest Hobbit
Sunstone said:
Is there a common psychology to all fundamentalists, regardless of their individual faiths?
That's a very good question. (I wish I'd studied psychology more.) I would imagine being raised in an environment of 'It's us against everyone else' would lend to the type of thinking we're discussing. A certain amount of narcissism might be necessary to the mindset, too.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
One thing that seems to characterize fundamentalism is a rejection of secular society as corrupt. (This might lead to the "us against everyone else" thinking you're talking about, Feathers, or it might be that that sort of thinking proceeds rejecting society as corrupt.)

I think you can see this rejection of secular society as corrupt in all kinds of fundamentalism, regardless of faith.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I've read at least one author who said that fundamentalism is characterized by a rejection of the principles of the European Enlightenment. Do you think this is true?
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
Sunstone said:
I've read at least one author who said that fundamentalism is characterized by a rejection of the principles of the European Enlightenment. Do you think this is true?
No. We don't accept the Enlightenment either, or the Renaissance, or the Scholsticism that lead up to it, but I hardly think you could call the Orthodox fundamentalists (well, apart perhaps from the lunatic fringe that would condemn me to hell for using the New Calendar - but all churches have those sorts of people). Of course, we never explicitly rejected any of these things (apart from Scholasticism) because they simply never happened in the East. To my knowledge, the Orthodox Church always saw religion as being quite seperate from the secular world and we didn't ever dogmatise things like geocentcric cosmology or a flat earth.

We didn't need a Renaissance because there's no need for a rebirth of culture unless it has first died and the Eastern Roman Empire (called Byzantine by western historians in the last couple of centuries) lasted until the Ottoman conquest. If anything we're going through our Renaissance now, but it's a spiritual renaissance after centuries of oppression by Muslim and atheist regimes. The Enlightenment is similarly a western only phenomenon.

I'd say the attitudes of 'us against the world' and 'everything secular, especially science, is inherently evil' that have already been raised are more or less the essence of religious fundamentalism and in Christianity this seems to be the particular affliction of some of the more radical Protestant groups.

James
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Sunstone said:
I've read at least one author who said that fundamentalism is characterized by a rejection of the principles of the European Enlightenment. Do you think this is true?
Interesting thought, and one which I would agree with; I looked up fundamentalist in two dictionaries,
1. (the interpretation of every word in the Bible as literal truth)

2 a movement in 20th century Protestantism emphasizing the literally interpreted Bible asfundamental to Christian life and teaching b : the beliefs of this movement c : adherence to such beliefs
3.a movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles
http://www.synonym.com/synonym/fundamentalism
And http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=+fundamentalism+&x=10&y=10

I was hoping to see the antonym - but there apparently isn't one. Furthermore, a search on European enlightenment reveals texts relating to the 1600's and 1700's - before ploughing through, by your question, atre you talking about that period, or current trends?:)
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
The Enlightenment principle that I think (from what I've read) most rejected by fundamentalists is the principle that reason and faith must be reconciled, and that reason informs and checks faith. By that, I mean that when there is a conflict between reason and faith, you go with reason. This principle seems to be rejected by fundamentalists everywhere.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Another thing that interests me here is why Hindu fundamentalists reject romantic love as a corrupt Western practice that is destructive of arranged marriages and the family. Joseph Campbell, in the Masks of God, does an extensive analysis on romantic love and comes to the conclusion that it is indeed at odds with the social order, because it places so much emphasis on the desires of the individuals involved, even over the needs of society.

But romantic love is not rejected by all fundamentalists, so its rejection might be just a Hindu fundamentalist thing.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
This site offers quite a good perspective :- http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/hum_303/enlightenment.html

I suppose this excerpt from the above site puts into context, relating to :-The Enlightenment in England

Meanwhile Great Britain had developed its own Enlightenment, fostered by thinkers like the English thinker John Locke, the Scot David Hume, and many others. England had anticipated the rest of Europe by deposing and decapitating its king back in the 17th century. Although the monarchy had eventually been restored, this experience created a certain openness toward change in many places that could not be entirely extinguished. English Protestantism struggled to express itself in ways that widened the limits of freedom of speech and press. Radical Quakers and Unitarians broke open old dogmas in ways that Voltaire was to find highly congenial when he found himself there in exile. The English and French Enlightenments exchanged influences through many channels, Voltaire not least among them.
Because England had gotten its revolution out of the way early, it was able to proceed more smoothly and gradually down the road to democracy; but English liberty was dynamite when transported to France, where resistance by church and state was fierce to the last possible moment. The result was ironically that while Britain remained saturated with class privilege and relatively pious, France was to become after its own revolution the most egalitarian and anticlerical state in Europe--at least in its ideals. The power of religion and the aristocracy diminished gradually in England; in France they were violently uprooted.

one good example of Enlightenment:-
"Michel de Montaigne, in a much more quiet and modest but ultimately more subversive way, asked a single question over and over again in his Essays: "What do I know?" By this he meant that we have no right to impose on others dogmas which rest on cultural habit rather than absolute truth. Powerfully influenced by the discovery of thriving non-Christian cultures in places as far off as Brazil, he argued that morals may be to some degree relative. Who are Europeans to insist that Brazilian cannibals who merely consume dead human flesh instead of wasting it are morally inferior to Europeans who persecute and oppress those of whom they disapprove? "

As to your question, from what I can see, as with any other subject in life there are those for and those against; fudamentalism and enlightenment.

I think Henry VIII, by his behaviour could be said to be 'enlightened' - though I think it was more a case of where's the answer to my problem ?

The English, as a whole, I would have thought tend towards the fundementalist side - but I think that is more of a culltural trait than anything else - the French, with their revolution are definitely classed as 'enlightened'.

That's the thing about England, we drag our heels about everything; we enjoy being steeped in tradition, although if you ask John Doe, he will probably tell you that it would be better to dump all the Pomp, and 'get with the beat'.:D
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
Sunstone said:
The Enlightenment principle that I think (from what I've read) most rejected by fundamentalists is the principle that reason and faith must be reconciled, and that reason informs and checks faith. By that, I mean that when there is a conflict between reason and faith, you go with reason. This principle seems to be rejected by fundamentalists everywhere.
You see, this is why the Enlightenment principles just don't apply to us. We don't have the same attitude to the reason/faith dichotomy at all. We explicitly rejected the idea that you could rationalise your way to belief in God, for instance, when we rejected Scholasticism. I think you could be right that rejecting the Enlightenment after accepting the precedent western philosophical and theological principles is a fundamentalist attitude, but this doesn't seem to apply if you've already rejected those precedents. We view revelation and faith as pertaining to the spiritual and science and reason as pertaining to the physical - there is no conflict and hence no need for reconciliation between the two as they are in completely different spheres. We, therefore, completely reject the Enlightenment whilst not holding that faith is superior to reason either. So I guess we really aren't fundamentalists by that definition.

James
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Michel said:
...atre you talking about that period, or current trends?:)
I'm talking about the principles that were first established during that period of European history and which are still even today cultural traits of Western societies. The primary principle I have in mind is that reason checks and informs faith.

In reference to the dictionary definition of fundamentalism, I think it refers specifically to the religious movement that began in the early 20th century in the US and Great Britain. But I have been using the word fundamentalist to refer to a much broader movement here. One that does not necessarily have its origins in the movement that began then.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
Out of curiosity, why is fundamentalism not associated with pandering to the fundamentals of a given position but instead intolerant lunacy?

I heard the term fundamentalist Christians in reference to an American group when I was about thirteen. I honestly pictured deeply religious, Jesus-quoting, turn-the-other-cheek promoting, people.

Funny eh?
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Sunstone said:
I'm talking about the principles that were first established during that period of European history and which are still even today cultural traits of Western societies. The primary principle I have in mind is that reason checks and informs faith.

In reference to the dictionary definition of fundamentalism, I think it refers specifically to the religious movement that began in the early 20th century in the US and Great Britain. But I have been using the word fundamentalist to refer to a much broader movement here. One that does not necessarily have its origins in the movement that began then.
In that case, we British are definitely modern Fundamentalists, (although as the article suggested, we have a continuous 'enlightenment' vein) whilst the other Continental countries like to become enlightened in short sharp burst.:)
 
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