What if it was created by God to evolve?

[SkepticThinker]

All this time and you don't understand that the Hebrew can legitimately be translated to show a local flood.

Nope, because you've yet to make a convincing case for it. Just stating so doesn't cut it.

The word that translated as "mountain" can also mean "hill". The word that translates "earth" and that we read in our head to mean "globe", can also be translated "land". And there are other things also in the interpretation which do not have to indicate for example "every single person on the whole spherical globe".
"All" does not necessarily mean "every single person bar none" in other places in the OT and could also be used the same way here.
Read it with these alterations and let me know of other questions and I will try to answer.

​

Genesis 6:9-9:17​

​

9 This is the account of Noah and his family.

Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God. 10 Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth.

11 Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. 14 So make yourself an ark of cypress[a] wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out. 15 This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be three hundred cubits long, fifty cubits wide and thirty cubits high.[b] 16 Make a roof for it, leaving below the roof an opening one cubit[c] high all around.[d] Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks. 17 I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish. 18 But I will establish my covenant with you, and you will enter the ark—you and your sons and your wife and your sons’ wives with you. 19 You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. 20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. 21 You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them.

22 Noah did everything just as God commanded him.

7 The Lord then said to Noah, “Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation. 2 Take with you seven pairs of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and one pair of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven pairs of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth. 4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made.”


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Let's replace all the words with the ones you like better ...

9 This is the account of Noah and his family.

Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God. 10 Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth.

11 Now the land was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the land had become, for all the people on land had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the land is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the land. 14 So make yourself an ark of cypress[a] wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out. 15 This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be three hundred cubits long, fifty cubits wide and thirty cubits high.[b] 16 Make a roof for it, leaving below the roof an opening one cubit[c] high all around.[d] Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks. 17 I am going to bring floodwaters on the land to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on land will perish. 18 But I will establish my covenant with you, and you will enter the ark—you and your sons and your wife and your sons’ wives with you. 19 You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. 20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. 21 You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them.”

22 Noah did everything just as God commanded him.

7 The Lord then said to Noah, “Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation. 2 Take with you seven pairs of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and one pair of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven pairs of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the land. 4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the land for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the land every living creature I have made.”


Replacing "earth" with "land" doesn't do much to change the meaning, as far as I can see.

One more thing, a God that wanted to "DESTROY ALL LIFE UNDER THE HEAVENS, EVERY CREATURE THAT HAS THE BREATH OF LIFE IN IT" is a god who flooded the entire earth and killed everything on it. Please explain how just that sentence alone makes any sense if we're talking about a "local" flood. Then you want to tell me that "all" doesn't mean all, when clearly this passage does actually mean "ALL."

Also, in the last line this god is talking about wiping from the face of the land/earth, EVERY LIVING CREATURE I HAVE MADE." Please explain how that makes any sense if the flood was "local." Are you going to now tell me that "every" actually doesn't mean 'every" but something else instead? Come on.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..in the last line this god is talking about wiping from the face of the land/earth, EVERY LIVING CREATURE I HAVE MADE." Please explain how that makes any sense if the flood was "local." Are you going to now tell me that "every" actually doesn't mean 'every" but something else instead? Come on.

I think that you leave something out that is very important.
..and that is the person responsible for writing the script .. and that would not
be G-d.

You are just being pedantic, thinking that you can make 'apparently smart' arguments,
in order to weaken people's faith.

Oh well .. we all have our roles to play..

 

[Brian2]

Nope, because you've yet to make a convincing case for it. Just stating so doesn't cut it.

​

Genesis 6:9-9:17​

​

9 This is the account of Noah and his family.

Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God. 10 Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth.

11 Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. 14 So make yourself an ark of cypress[a] wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out. 15 This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be three hundred cubits long, fifty cubits wide and thirty cubits high.[b] 16 Make a roof for it, leaving below the roof an opening one cubit[c] high all around.[d] Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks. 17 I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish. 18 But I will establish my covenant with you, and you will enter the ark—you and your sons and your wife and your sons’ wives with you. 19 You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. 20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. 21 You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them.

22 Noah did everything just as God commanded him.

7 The Lord then said to Noah, “Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation. 2 Take with you seven pairs of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and one pair of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven pairs of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth. 4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made.”


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Let's replace all the words with the ones you like better ...

9 This is the account of Noah and his family.

Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God. 10 Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth.

11 Now the land was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the land had become, for all the people on land had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the land is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the land. 14 So make yourself an ark of cypress[a] wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out. 15 This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be three hundred cubits long, fifty cubits wide and thirty cubits high.[b] 16 Make a roof for it, leaving below the roof an opening one cubit[c] high all around.[d] Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks. 17 I am going to bring floodwaters on the land to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on land will perish. 18 But I will establish my covenant with you, and you will enter the ark—you and your sons and your wife and your sons’ wives with you. 19 You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. 20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. 21 You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them.”

22 Noah did everything just as God commanded him.

7 The Lord then said to Noah, “Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation. 2 Take with you seven pairs of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and one pair of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven pairs of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the land. 4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the land for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the land every living creature I have made.”


Replacing "earth" with "land" doesn't do much to change the meaning, as far as I can see.

It makes a difference imo.

One more thing, a God that wanted to "DESTROY ALL LIFE UNDER THE HEAVENS, EVERY CREATURE THAT HAS THE BREATH OF LIFE IN IT" is a god who flooded the entire earth and killed everything on it. Please explain how just that sentence alone makes any sense if we're talking about a "local" flood. Then you want to tell me that "all" doesn't mean all, when clearly this passage does actually mean "ALL."

It is true that "all" in other places in the OT does not actually mean "every single one, bar none". It's true, "all" does not always mean "all". ANYWAY with this particular
passage: I am going to bring floodwaters on the land to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on land will perish.

it should be clear that the "all" meant those in the land, the land that was covered by the heavens that Noah could see. (Noah had no idea of a spherical earth)

Also, in the last line this god is talking about wiping from the face of the land/earth, EVERY LIVING CREATURE I HAVE MADE." Please explain how that makes any sense if the flood was "local." Are you going to now tell me that "every" actually doesn't mean 'every" but something else instead? Come on.

As I said, I could go on about the use of "all" in othe parts of the OT, but in this particular passage it means that all animals and humans in the land will be killed.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I think that you leave something out that is very important.
..and that is the person responsible for writing the script .. and that would not
be G-d.

God(s) haven't written down anything, as far as I can tell.

You are just being pedantic, thinking that you can make 'apparently smart' arguments,
in order to weaken people's faith.

Oh well .. we all have our roles to play..

Excuse me? I'm talking with a Christian about his interpretation of Bible stories. The details of the story matter in this case.

I'm not trying to weaken anyone's faith. I'm trying to have a discussion about interpretations of a Bible story.

Do you have anything to say about it, other than attempting to attack my character?

 

[SkepticThinker]

It makes a difference imo.

Then explain it instead of just declaring it.

It is true that "all" in other places in the OT does not actually mean "every single one, bar none". It's true, "all" does not always mean "all". ANYWAY with this particular
passage: I am going to bring floodwaters on the land to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on land will perish.

This was in response to, "One more thing, a God that wanted to "DESTROY ALL LIFE UNDER THE HEAVENS, EVERY CREATURE THAT HAS THE BREATH OF LIFE IN IT" is a god who flooded the entire earth and killed everything on it. Please explain how just that sentence alone makes any sense if we're talking about a "local" flood. Then you want to tell me that "all" doesn't mean all, when clearly this passage does actually mean "ALL."

In this case it seems to mean "ALL LIFE UNDER THE HEAVENS," which would be all life on earth. Unless you think "the heavens" only hang over a very specific localized region of the world. Which doesn't really make any sense.

it should be clear that the "all" meant those in the land, the land that was covered by the heavens that Noah could see. (Noah had no idea of a spherical earth)

So "the heavens" only covered the small part of land that Noah could see? How does that make any sense?

The limitations of Noah's knowledge shouldn't apply here, since we're supposedly talking about the actions of a GOD who should know more than Noah about how large the earth is, dont'cha think? Or can God only see as far as Noah could supposedly see?

As I said, I could go on about the use of "all" in othe parts of the OT, but in this particular passage it means that all animals and humans in the land will be killed.

This was in response to, "Also, in the last line this god is talking about wiping from the face of the land/earth, EVERY LIVING CREATURE I HAVE MADE." Please explain how that makes any sense if the flood was "local." Are you going to now tell me that "every" actually doesn't mean 'every" but something else instead? Come on."

"Every living creature I have made" kind of speaks for itself, doesn't it? Or did God just contain "every living creature" he has made to one specific localized region of the world (which of course, we know isn't true)?

You've not addressed and of my points in any depth here. Instead you talked around them.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The details of the story matter in this case..

Matter to who? You, it would seem.

You insist that the only interpretation of an ancient scripture, Genesis,
is referring to the whole of planet earth.

One: you don't believe it has any credence, in any case.
Two: you ignore the scribes possible bias/ignorance.

..and Three: the flood was local, as was the nature of life in the times we speak of.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Matter to who? You, it would seem.

Myself and the person I'm conversing about it with.

You insist that the only interpretation of an ancient scripture, Genesis,
is referring to the whole of planet earth.

That's what the words say.

One: you don't believe it has any credence, in any case.
Two: you ignore the scribes possible bias/ignorance.

..and Three: the flood was local, as was the nature of life in the times we speak of.

Yes, I'm talking about a story I don't believe happened with a person who does think it happened, but not as written. We're discussing the details.

Do you have something relevant to add or .... ?

 

[muhammad_isa]

This was in response to, "Also, in the last line this god is talking about wiping from the face of the land/earth, EVERY LIVING CREATURE I HAVE MADE." Please explain how that makes any sense if the flood was "local." Are you going to now tell me that "every" actually doesn't mean 'every" but something else instead? Come on."

Word games..

It is very easy to change a word or two here and there, and make a script imply
something that it did not before.
i.e. by the translator / scribe

 

[SkepticThinker]

Word games..

It is very easy to change a word or two here and there, and make a script imply
something that it did not before.
i.e. by the translator / scribe

Cool. Tell the guy I'm conversing with.

 

[The Hammer]

Yes, and those are not very reliable

Actually it can be very reliable and accurate.

Our written culture is biased to think otherwise.

The Memory Code: how oral cultures memorise so much information

How an ancient Aboriginal memory technique may uncover the meaning behind archaeological sites across the globe are revealed in a new book, The Memory Code.

theconversation.com

 

[Subduction Zone]

Actually it can be very reliable and accurate.

Our written culture is biased to think otherwise.

The Memory Code: how oral cultures memorise so much information

How an ancient Aboriginal memory technique may uncover the meaning behind archaeological sites across the globe are revealed in a new book, The Memory Code.

theconversation.com

I would say that it is possible, but that article only had claims. I have seen that memory trick used elsewhere and it can help someone with their memory. But one needs permanent reminders that one can use to confirm the memories. Otherwise the trick fails after a while. The use of stars as mnemonics is an excellent example. The stars won't change, and can be used as a key to keeping a story straight. But if one based the same sort of memories on a stream that meandered and cut new channels at times the memories could easily be lost.

The problem with the Bible stories is that there do not appear to have been any such unchanging sources that could serve as mnemonics.

 

[The Hammer]

I only mention it because when I studied the Rapanui, it turned out their oral tradition was very accurate.

And was how we've figured out how the heads were moved.

Whether the biblical stories are accurate orally doesn't matter any more, because they've been written down.

I would say that it is possible, but that article only had claims. I have seen that memory trick used elsewhere and it can help someone with their memory. But one needs permanent reminders that one can use to confirm the memories. Otherwise the trick fails after a while. The use of stars as mnemonics is an excellent example. The stars won't change, and can be used as a key to keeping a story straight. But if one based the same sort of memories on a stream that meandered and cut new channels at times the memories could easily be lost.

The problem with the Bible stories is that there do not appear to have been any such unchanging sources that could serve as mnemonics.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I only mention it because when I studied the Rapanui, it turned out their oral tradition was very accurate.

And was how we've figured out how the heads were moved.

Whether the biblical stories are accurate orally doesn't matter any more, because they've been written down.

Yes, but they were not written down until long after their claimed events. And they do not appear to have a history of mnemonics. Also some of the sources for tales have been identified. And even worse for the Bible is that we do have clear evidence that they were not using mnemonics. For example the ten year difference between the dates of the Nativity myths. Also a parallel reading of the Gospels show that they did not agree on the details of important events. I am not saying that what is in that article does not work. I am merely saying that it is rather clear that it was not used by the authors of the Bible.

 

[The Hammer]

Yes, but they were not written down until long after their claimed events. And they do not appear to have a history of mnemonics. Also some of the sources for tales have been identified. And even worse for the Bible is that we do have clear evidence that they were not using mnemonics. For example the ten year difference between the dates of the Nativity myths. Also a parallel reading of the Gospels show that they did not agree on the details of important events. I am not saying that what is in that article does not work. I am merely saying that it is rather clear that it was not used by the authors of the Bible.

I'm not defending the Bible as accurate. I'm actually arguing the opposite. It's inaccurate because it was written down. Not because it was originally oral.

 

[Audie]

Nope, because you've yet to make a convincing case for it. Just stating so doesn't cut it.

​

Genesis 6:9-9:17​

​

9 This is the account of Noah and his family.

Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God. 10 Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth.

11 Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. 14 So make yourself an ark of cypress[a] wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out. 15 This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be three hundred cubits long, fifty cubits wide and thirty cubits high.[b] 16 Make a roof for it, leaving below the roof an opening one cubit[c] high all around.[d] Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks. 17 I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish. 18 But I will establish my covenant with you, and you will enter the ark—you and your sons and your wife and your sons’ wives with you. 19 You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. 20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. 21 You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them.

22 Noah did everything just as God commanded him.

7 The Lord then said to Noah, “Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation. 2 Take with you seven pairs of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and one pair of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven pairs of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth. 4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made.”


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Let's replace all the words with the ones you like better ...

9 This is the account of Noah and his family.

Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God. 10 Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth.

11 Now the land was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the land had become, for all the people on land had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the land is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the land. 14 So make yourself an ark of cypress[a] wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out. 15 This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be three hundred cubits long, fifty cubits wide and thirty cubits high.[b] 16 Make a roof for it, leaving below the roof an opening one cubit[c] high all around.[d] Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks. 17 I am going to bring floodwaters on the land to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on land will perish. 18 But I will establish my covenant with you, and you will enter the ark—you and your sons and your wife and your sons’ wives with you. 19 You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. 20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. 21 You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them.”

22 Noah did everything just as God commanded him.

7 The Lord then said to Noah, “Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation. 2 Take with you seven pairs of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and one pair of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven pairs of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the land. 4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the land for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the land every living creature I have made.”


Replacing "earth" with "land" doesn't do much to change the meaning, as far as I can see.

One more thing, a God that wanted to "DESTROY ALL LIFE UNDER THE HEAVENS, EVERY CREATURE THAT HAS THE BREATH OF LIFE IN IT" is a god who flooded the entire earth and killed everything on it. Please explain how just that sentence alone makes any sense if we're talking about a "local" flood. Then you want to tell me that "all" doesn't mean all, when clearly this passage does actually mean "ALL."

Also, in the last line this god is talking about wiping from the face of the land/earth, EVERY LIVING CREATURE I HAVE MADE." Please explain how that makes any sense if the flood was "local." Are you going to now tell me that "every" actually doesn't mean 'every" but something else instead? Come on.

Cognotive dissonance, why do people bitterly cling to it?