What has happened to Protestantism?

[IndigoChild5559]

Anglicans are considered to be Protestants. Remember Henry VIII and all that brouhaha?

Anglican describe themselves as "via media," meaning the middle road between Catholic and Protestant.

 

[Rival]

The way it has been explained to me, is that when referring to the Catholic Church in Rome, you capitalize the C. When you merely mean catholic as in universal, you use a small case c. So the way I would say it is that while Henry VIII did not remain Catholic, he remained catholic.

Henry was perhaps the only Catholic without the Pope. In many respects he maintained RC Theology except those areas which necessitated the Pope. Excommunicated though he was, Henry would certainly not have considered himself a Protestant, despised Luther, and was very well read theologically. Henry considered himself in the line of Mediaeval Christianity, certainly not a Protestant.

Here are the X Articles of Faith which Henry promulgated post-Divorce: Ten Articles of 1536

As you can see, they are basically Catholic.

It is Elizabeth really who begins the C of E as we know it.

But you are right that catholic small c is universal as most Churches describe themselves this way.

 

[Kathryn]

Anglican describe themselves as "media via," meaning the middle road between Catholic and Protestant.

I'm saying that Catholics don't consider them to be Catholic because they split from the Pope. We consider them to be Protestants.

 

[Rival]

I'm saying that Catholics don't consider them to be Catholic because they split from the Pope. We consider them to be Protestants.

The AC is a Protestant Church.

An important part of the coronation ceremony is the taking of the coronation oath which is required by the Coronation Oath Act of 1689. According to the Act the monarch makes a declaration to maintain the established Anglican Protestant Church during his or her coronation ceremony.

https://www.parliament.uk/about/living-heritage/evolutionofparliament/parliamentwork/offices-and-ceremonies/collections/parliament-and-the-queen/coronation-oath-act/#:~:text=An%20important%20part%20of%20the,his%20or%20her%20coronation%20ceremony.

Will You to the utmost of Your power Maintaine the Laws of God the true Profession of the Gospell and the Protestant Reformed Religion Established by Law? And will You Preserve unto the Bishops and Clergy of this Realme and to the Churches committed to their Charge all such Rights and Priviledges as by Law doe or shall appertaine unto them or any of them?

[...]

The third part was also controversially amended to reflect the dissestablishment of the Church in Wales in 1920 and to remove any implication that the Anglican church was the established church in the dominions:

Will you to the utmost of your power maintain the Laws of God and the true profession of the Gospel? Will you to the utmost of your power maintain in the United Kingdom the Protestant Reformed Religion established by law?

Coronation oath of the British monarch - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[mangalavara]

This is not Anglicanism, the largest Protestant denomination in the world. This is not Lutheranism, either.

What is going on?

If I were a Christian, I would wonder what the Holy Spirit is up to in the Church of England.

Do people think liturgy = RCC?

Saints = RCC?

Tradition = RCC?

A great number of Westerners are ignorant of church history and the existence of Eastern Christianity. In their world, one is either a Protestant or a Roman Catholic. That is probably why they associate liturgy, saints, and tradition with the Roman Catholic Church.

Wtf is happening to Protestantism?

Again, if I were a Christian, I would wonder what the Holy Spirit is up to in the Protestant sphere, and I would implore him to make it obvious to me.

It's as if people don't know this. They do not know their own Reformers.

'Richard Hooker is irrelevant to my personal relationship with Jesus.'

 

[Rival]

'Richard Hooker is irrelevant to my personal relationship with Jesus.'

Meanwhile I'll be writing my dissertation on him.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Henry was perhaps the only Catholic without the Pope. In many respects he maintained RC Theology except those areas which necessitated the Pope. Excommunicated though he was, Henry would certainly not have considered himself a Protestant, despised Luther, and was very well read theologically. Henry considered himself in the line of Mediaeval Christianity, certainly not a Protestant.

Here are the X Articles of Faith which Henry promulgated post-Divorce: Ten Articles of 1536

As you can see they are basically Catholic.

It is Elizabeth really who begins the C of E as we know it.

But you are right that catholic small c is universal as most Churches describe themselves this way.

Yes, you are absolutely correct that in Henry VIII's initial version of the Church of England, it pretty much shared all Catholic doctrines and traditions, with one exception: that the Pope is the head of the Church. Being Catholic means, among other things, being in union with the Bishop of Rome. Once Henry broke with the pope, he was no longer Catholic.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I'm saying that Catholics don't consider them to be Catholic because they split from the Pope. We consider them to be Protestants.

You can consider them to be Muslims if you want. But the most accurate description is that which they give themselves: Via Media.

 

[RestlessSoul]

I'm saying that Catholics don't consider them to be Catholic because they split from the Pope. We consider them to be Protestants.

That might depend which Catholics you ask. Or even which Pope.

Though the CoE does reject the authority of the Pope, so if that is what defines Protestantism, then yes.

 

[Rival]

Yes, you are absolutely correct that in Henry VIII's initial version of the Church of England, it pretty much shared all Catholic doctrines and traditions, with one exception: that the Pope is the head of the Church. Being Catholic means, among other things, being in union with the Bishop of Rome. Once Henry broke with the pope, he was no longer Catholic.

Not according to the Church, no, but I think our problem here is that we're using anachronistic terms; no-one at the time would have called himself a Catholic or such. They're all just Christians. Henry would have been considered excommunicate from the Church, but his personal theology aside from the Papal issue was theologically sound (i.e., he wasn't theologically Protestant). He negatived one doctrine, essentially, and kept the rest. He used the Sarum Mass, the only difference being that it was in English, but even this was not a problem really as other places had their Masses in the vernacular (I think it was Czechia).

 

[Rival]

You can consider them to be Muslims if you want. But the most accurate description is that which they give themselves: Media Via.

Via Media

 

[muhammad_isa]

Henry was perhaps the only Catholic without the Pope. In many respects he maintained RC Theology except those areas which necessitated the Pope. Excommunicated though he was, Henry would certainly not have considered himself a Protestant, despised Luther, and was very well read theologically. Henry considered himself in the line of Mediaeval Christianity, certainly not a Protestant..

Yes .. it's very interesting, isn't it..

..but UK is still considered to be a "protestant nation"..

The Elizabethan Religious Settlement is the name given to the religious and political arrangements made for England during the reign of Elizabeth I (1558–1603). The settlement, implemented from 1559 to 1563, marked the end of the English Reformation. It permanently shaped the Church of England's doctrine and liturgy, laying the foundation for the unique identity of Anglicanism.
- Wikipedia -

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Not according to the Church, no, but I think our problem here is that we're using anachronistic terms; no-one at the time would have called himself a Catholic or such. They're all just Christians. Henry would have been considered excommunicate from the Church, but his personal theology aside from the Papal issue was theologically sound (i.e., he wasn't theologically Protestant). He negatived one doctrine, essentially, and kept the rest. He used the Sarum Mass, the only difference being that it was in English, but even this was not a problem really as other places had their Masses in the vernacular (I think it was Czechia).

I'm not sure if we are misunderstanding each other or not...

I once asked and was directly told by a Catholic priest that Sedevacantists are not considered Catholic, for the one reason that they are not in communion with the Pope. As you know, Sedes not only have all the Catholic beliefs and traditions, but as far as their practice goes, they are like UBER Catholics. Nevertheless, their rejection of the pope essentially places them in SCHISM with the Catholic church (his word).

Canon §751:

schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

If that is true about Sedes, the same logic would apply to Henry VIII.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Via Media

Ooops. Yes I'll go back and edit that blooper LOL.

 

[Kathryn]

You can consider them to be Muslims if you want. But the most accurate description is that which they give themselves: Media Via.

I don't consider them to be Muslim or Catholic, because they aren't.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I don't consider them to be Muslim or Catholic, because they aren't.

I didn't say they were Muslim or Catholic or Protestant. I said they are as they claim: Via Media

 

[Rival]

I'm not sure if we are misunderstanding each other or not...

I once asked and was directly told by a Catholic priest that Sedevacantists are not considered Catholic, for the one reason that they are not in communion with the Pope. As you know, Sedes not only have all the Catholic beliefs and traditions, but as far as their practice goes, they are like UBER Catholics. Nevertheless, their rejection of the pope essentially places them in SCHISM with the Catholic church (his word).

Canon §751:


If that is true about Sedes, the same logic would apply to Henry VIII.

They're not a part of the Catholic Church (according to the Catholic Church, which is also problematic as the SVs won't see its modern judgements as binding), but this doesn't negate that theologically they are Roman Catholics.

It's the same with the Russian Orthodox Church; they were excommunicated years ago but they're still theologically Orthodox Christians and are regarded as such, they're just not part of the Orthodox Church.

 

[Kathryn]

That might depend which Catholics you ask. Or even which Pope.

Though the CoE does reject the authority of the Pope, so if that is what defines Protestantism, then yes.

Thanks. I believe the Anglican Church is Protestant. Not only that but most other sources also agree with me.

 

[Rival]

I didn't say they were Muslim or Catholic or Protestant. I said they are as they claim: Via Media

The Via Media—Between What and What? | The North American Anglican

It's not settled what this is either. I know this one,

The first group of Anglicans (let’s call them “Calvinist Anglicans”) says that the via media runs between Wittenberg and Geneva but finally ends in Geneva.

The notion that the Anglican via media travels between Roman Catholicism and Protestantism has been “often debunked” by historians such as Anthony Milton in the first volume of the 4-volume Oxford History of Anglicanism. It was only John Henry Newman and his disciples who have imagined that the Anglican way in its basic outlook is neither Roman nor Protestant.

 

[Kathryn]

They're not a part of the Catholic Church (according to the Catholic Church, which is also problematic as the SV won't see its modern judgements as binding), but this doesn't negate that theologically they are Roman Catholics.

It's the same with the Russian Orthodox Church; they were excommunicated years ago but they're still theologically Orthodox Christians and are regarded as such, they're just not part of the Orthodox Church.

Who is the SV?