What God in each major ancient civilization is closest to the one supreme God?

[Sand Dancer]

Not sure why you are assuming that the Hebrew Yahweh is the supreme god, but since the idea for Yahweh was taken from the Babylonian gods mostly, I'll say Sumerian.

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

As far as i know, the civilisations u mentioned were polytheistic.

 

[Rakovsky]

Narrowing things down further, the Sumerians and Egyptians seem to be the only societies we really understand well due to their writing from 3500-2500 BC.

But there were major civilizations in Peru, China, and the Indus Valley also at that time:

One of the questions is whether China had a neolithic civilization in the same way that the Peruvians and Indus Valley did. It looks to me like they did, but it does not look as strong to me as the Indus Valley one:

Banpo VIllage, dated 4700 BC

Banpo vessel, 4800 BC

Excavation of a Peiligang culture site in Xinzheng county, Henan, found a community that flourished in 5,500 to 4,900 BC, with evidence of agriculture, constructed buildings, pottery, and burial of the dead.[16] With agriculture came increased population, the ability to store and redistribute crops, and the potential to support specialist craftsmen and administrators.[12] In late Neolithic times, the Yellow River valley began to establish itself as a center of Yangshao culture (5000 BC to 3000 BC), and the first villages were founded; the most archaeologically significant of these was found at Banpo, Xi'an.[17] Later, Yangshao culture was superseded by the Longshan culture, which was also centered on the Yellow River from about 3000 BC to 2000 BC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_China#Prehistory

Longshan culture

Longshan cultural site

Yangshao culture

Hemudu site from 5000+ BC

Maiping village 2500 BC, near Yaan city

 

[Aupmanyav]

If one looks at prehistory, there would have been a stage when the proto-languages were together in the northern Balkans: hence common roots in Celtic and Latin like reg "king" and the preservation of the a/o distinction in those groups (unlike Germanic, Slavonic, Anatolian, etc).

It is not correct to assume that the ancient people were ever compartmentalized. Even stones for Stonehenges, beads, stone for implements were carried over large distances, hundreds and thousands of miles.Take for example the word Raja, Ragnya, Rajanya, etc., they are close to Latin 'reg' that you mention here.

 

[Aupmanyav]

However, the question is whether or not the PIE people were in frequent communication with Semitic peoples, and simple geographic proximity is not enough to determine that.

The final issue at hand in this tangent of mine is whether the PIE people had some kind of equivalent to the modern Supreme Deity of monotheist religions; I don't really think such a thing can be determined to exist.

We know of the Hittites and the Mittani who interacted with the Sumerian and Egyptian people. The Indo-Aryan people interacted with indigenous Indians. The IE group was polythistic/Henotheistic/Kethenotheistic till Zoroaster's time who came up with monotheism.
@Rakovsky, I appreciate your extensive effort for the topic. Thanks.

 

[Rakovsky]

Hittites and Mittani were ancient Indo-European civilizations in Mesopotamia. Also interesting: Where was the Indo-European homeland, in southern Russia or in Asia Minor? Scholars are divided. It looks to me like the Centum languages (Tocharian, Celtic) spread out farther and at an earlier date than the Satum languages (Russian, Hindi). If you go by the Bible, their languages diverged at Babel in Mesopotamia, so that would be the Indo-European heartland or origin land. But the Torah was written maybe in 1500 BC and the creation of these languages goes back long before.

Whether the Indus Valley society was Indo-European is another interesting question.
The Indus Valley culture's language has not been deciphered from 3500-1500 BC, and we don't know whether they were Indo-European or some other group that preceded the Aryans.

One idea I have is to notice the similarities between Hinduism and proto-IndoEuropean religion, and well as the Indus artefacts showing certain religious concepts or gods, like those that can be found in Hinduism, which suggests a continuity.

And then there are some interesting unique traits of Hinduism that differ from other European pagan religions, like the system of the Brahmans - who are they, noting that they have a different DNA to some extent - and the introduction of the caste system.

One more question, for you in particular, is if you can describe Vishnu in a personal way? For example, Krishna is described as having what practically sounds like a biography, he got born from Vasudeva, he was brought up by a mother goddess, he or someone in his family was in prison, etc. Can we find these kinds of biographical-seeming details in a life of Vishnu?

 

[Aupmanyav]

My choice is with BG Tilak, not Scandinavia, not Asia Minor, not Southern Russia, but farther northwards, Somewhere perhaps the Taymyr Peninsula or even closer to North Pole. The land form before the last ice-age was different and so was the climate, though the society was basically of hunters, herders and gatherers. A huge shalow sea-shelf exists between Taymyr and Scandinavia which could have been a dry land at that time (Barents Sea and Kara Sea). There was an Arctic night of two months, the dawn lasted for 30 days and sun could be seen in the sky for seven months. That is what is mentioned in RigVeda. https://archive.org/details/TheArcticHomeInTheVedas

When did Aryans come to India? I am equally puzzled. Perhaps Indus/Saraswati Valley civilization was a joint effort by Aryans and indigenous Indians. They certainly were here in strength before 2,000 BC, when a tectonic upheaval caused the disappearance/dwindling of River Saraswati (exists even now as a small seasonal rivulet known as 'Sarsuti'). The region was termed as 'Aryavarta' (land of Aryans) or 'Brahmavarta', and people with this tag were supposed to be superior, purer. With Aryans, it was a peaceful co-mingling in India. There is no mention of a conflict in any ancient book. Brahmins were surely from the four divisions of the Aryan society as is present even among the Zoroastrians. Later however, indigenous Shamans were co-opted as brahmins. This happened in other divisions of the society as well. Indigenous chieftains and warrior clans were co-opted as Kshatriyas. Indian DNA is quite homogenized which shows that this co-mingling happened a long time ago.

Personal view on Vishnu: Vishnu was a minor Vedic deity with just six hymns dedicated to him in RigVeda. He became prominent after assimilation with the popular indigenous Hindu deities all over India, who are not mentioned in the RigVeda and who are now known as avataras of Vishnu. The ten avataras: Matsya (Fish), Kachhapa (Tortoise), Varaha (Boar), Nrisimha (Man-lion), Vamana (Dwarf), Parashuram, Rama, Krishna, and at a later date, Buddha.

Sarsuti

 

[Aupmanyav]

The rise of Vishnu is a very interesting episode in Hindu Mythology. Two Aryan Gods came up to fight the indigenous Gods and were both roundly defeated. Shiva destroyed Prajapati Daksha's sacrifice and Krishna vanquished Indra in Vrindavana by lifting Govardhan mountain. But Vishnu did not fight anyone. He came with his sweet smile and peaceful ways, and impersonated the indigenous Gods. Rama (Oh, that is me only), Krishna (Oh, that is me only), and won the battle without a war. I do not know if you are familar with the stories.

 

[Rakovsky]

When did Aryans come to India? I am equally puzzled. Perhaps Indus/Saraswati Valley civilization was a joint effort by Aryans and indigenous Indians. They certainly were here in strength before 2,000 BC, when a tectonic upheaval caused the disappearance/dwindling of River Saraswati (exists even now as a small seasonal rivulet known as 'Sarsuti').

Can you please write more how we know or can suppose this?

 

[Rakovsky]

The rise of Vishnu is a very interesting episode in Hindu Mythology. Two Aryan Gods came up to fight the indigenous Gods and were both roundly defeated. Shiva destroyed Prajapati Daksha's sacrifice and Krishna vanquished Indra in Vrindavana by lifting Govardhan mountain. But Vishnu did not fight anyone. He came with his sweet smile and peaceful ways, and impersonated the indigenous Gods. Rama (Oh, that is me only), Krishna (Oh, that is me only), and won the battle without a war. I do not know if you are familar with the stories.

So Indra is not an Aryan God but a pre-Aryan Indian one?
I don't know the story, but understand what you mean otherwise.

Also, couldn't we test the DNA of corpses at the Harappan sites to see what their DNA is and then see if their DNA matches the Indo-European peoples? R1b and R1a for example are common DNA among the Centum and Satum peoples respectively.

 

[Rakovsky]

On Aryan DNA in the Indus Valley, here is one theory that traces R1A (Satum) DNA:

The Indo-Iranian migrations progressed further south across the Hindu Kush. By 1700 BCE, horse-riding pastoralists had penetrated into Balochistan (south-west Pakistan). The Indus valley succumbed circa 1500 BCE, and the northern and central parts of the Indian subcontinent were taken over by 500 BCE. Westward migrations led Old Indic Sanskrit speakers riding war chariots to Assyria, where they became the Mitanni rulers from circa 1500 BCE.
...
The highest frequency of R1a (about 65%) is reached in a cluster around Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and northern Afghanistan. In India and Pakistan, R1a ranges from 15 to 50% of the population, depending on the region, ethnic group and caste. R1a is generally stronger is the North-West of the subcontinent, and weakest in the Dravidian-speaking South (Tamil Nadu, Kerala, Karnataka, Andhra Pradesh) and from Bengal eastward. Over 70% of the Brahmins (highest caste in Hindusim) belong to R1a1, due to a founder effect.

Maternal lineages in South Asia are, however, overwhelmingly pre-Indo-European. For instance, India has over 75% of "native" mtDNA M and R lineages and 10% of East Asian lineages. In the residual 15% of haplogroups, approximately half are of Middle Eastern origin. Only about 7 or 8% could be of "Russian" (Pontic-Caspian steppe) origin, mostly in the form of haplogroup U2 and W (although the origin of U2 is still debated). European mtDNA lineages are much more common in Central Asia though, and even in Afghanistan and northern Pakistan. This suggests that the Indo-European invasion of India was conducted mostly by men through war, and the first major settlement of women was in northern Pakistan, western India (Punjab to Gujarat) and northern India (Uttar Pradesh), where haplogroups U2 and W are the most common.
http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a-Z93-Asia.png

So Eupedia is proposing that the Indo-Europeans moved into the Indus Valley "by" 1700 BC with their horses. As you may know, the Indus Valley society lasted from 2500-1500 BC. One reason some claim it was not Indo-European is because they hardly find horses in the Indus art.
Another fact it brings up is that the Brahman caste is basically Indo-European.

What would be very helpful is if they would do DNA tests for haplogroups on corpses in the Indus Valley.

I would be glad to hear if you might be able to find anything online. I think eventually anthropologists will test some corpses and establish their DNA haplogroup.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Can you please write more how we know or can suppose this?

Brahmins who term themselves as 'Saraswat' are scattered all over India. They are among the cream of brahmins and have always been respected for their knowledge of scriptures. The scattering is supposed to have begun around 2,000 BC, when the Indus/Saraswati region experienced the disappearance of Saraswati river and a change in climate. The region went dry. That is also the reason of the fall of Indus/Saraswati civilisation. There are literally, thousands of archaeological sites in this region. Sage Agastya is supposed to have been the first Aryan to cross the central Indian Vindhya mountains. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saraswat_Brahmin

 

[Aupmanyav]

So Indra is not an Aryan God but a pre-Aryan Indian one?
I don't know the story, but understand what you mean otherwise.

Also, couldn't we test the DNA of corpses at the Harappan sites to see what their DNA is and then see if their DNA matches the Indo-European peoples? R1b and R1a for example are common DNA among the Centum and Satum peoples respectively.

Indra was the chief God of the Indo-Aryans. But the indigenous people did not accept him. There are various mythological stories about the misdeeds of Indra and finally his worship was banned in India. Although he is still invoked in Aryan type fire-rituals - yajnas, but there are no temples for him. In the conflict with Krishna, Indra tried to inundate the people Vrindavana by rain as they would not worship him, but Krishna, an indigenous God, is supposed to have saved them by lifting a mountain, and that too on the tip of his small finger, convincing people (mythologically) of his greater power.

The DNA of Harappan people has been found to be similar to that of modern Indians.

 

[Rakovsky]

So you have or know of any studies saying their dna is the same?

 

[Aupmanyav]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peopling_of_India
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics_and_archaeogenetics_of_South_Asia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryan_migration_theory
https://www.google.co.in/webhp?sour...-8#q=peopling of india insights from genetics

 

[Rakovsky]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peopling_of_India
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics_and_archaeogenetics_of_South_Asia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryan_migration_theory
https://www.google.co.in/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1LENP_enIN576IN576&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=peopling of india insights from genetics

I read the third article above and did a Google search. I know studies show modern north Indians have Indo European R1a DNA, but would like to see if Indus valley corpses showed this. Maybe you can provide some quotes?

Thanks for the discussion.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I got this at Google Search for "Harappa DNA": https://www.google.co.in/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=harappa+DNA
Got this from Google Image Search for "Harappa DNA": https://www.google.co.in/search?q=h...aDjDtiM:;EkZPem-XRSp2gM:&imgrc=IirCCAKaDjDtiM:
I do not know what the image given below means. I have yet to get the head and tail of the whole thing.

Notice the sites on far right. Kalibangan, Rakhigarhi, Banawali. They do not exist on the banks of an existing river. That was perhaps the course of Vedic Saraswati River. http://www.humanjourney.us/preAxialHarappa.html

 

[Rakovsky]

I got this at Google Search for "Harappa DNA": https://www.google.co.in/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=harappa+DNA
Got this from Google Image Search for "Harappa DNA": https://www.google.co.in/search?q=h...aDjDtiM:;EkZPem-XRSp2gM:&imgrc=IirCCAKaDjDtiM:
I do not know what the image given below means. I have yet to get the head and tail of the whole thing.

What I have seen some do is propose an idea of Harappan DNA based on modern Pakistani DNA. But I think if they tested Indus corpses it would be alot better.

 

[Rakovsky]

Thanks for trying.

 

[Rakovsky]

For Egypt, my main question would be to understand the purpose of the pyramids at Giza (eg. as a tomb vs a power generator vs a communication device or something else like that), and second to see if there are major archeological finds there still to be discovered, like underground chambers. I believe that there are such finds remaining underground. There are major cave and tunnel systems around Egypt. There could be chambers left inside the pyramids but blocked off that we haven't found.

For Sumer, I would like to learn more about the gods An and Nammu and the meaning and etymology of Dingir.

For the Indus Valley, there is much that scholars debate, since we haven't deciphered their language. We haven't even reached a consensus on whether they were Indo-European. Showing us their DNA or deciphering their language would be a major way to find out if they were Indo-European. That would be relevant to helping us understand their religion and how close it is to Hinduism and the Vedas.

For the ancient pre-Shang Chinese of before 1700 BC, we are left with a similar mystery when it comes to understanding their religion, but one even harder to unravel because we don't have much of their writings, only symbols that some scholars guess amount to language.

And for the Norte Chico/Sechin Bajo/Caral civilization, a similar problem arises because the ability to read quipu cords has been lost. So it's hard to understand their religion. An especially curious thing for me though would be to see if there is some connection between ancient Peruvian society of 3500-2000 BC and Egyptian society of that same time frame as some scholars hypothesize. They both had pyramids, cotton (species: Gossypium barbadense), and mummies. It's hard to show contact because we don't have records directly recording contact and because the civilizations are quite far apart geographically.

The invention of cotton fishing nets, the cotton grown in the Supe valley, must have greatly facilitated the fishing industry. It is believed that this excess of food might have resulted in trade with the religious centres. But apart from an economic model of exchange, the new social model also meant that a labour force existed that had in essence little to do. This labour force could thus be used for “religious purposes”. Caral might have been the natural result of this process – just like the pyramids of Egypt seem to have been the result of an available workforce.

The discovery of Caral has therefore reintroduced a powerful enigma: at the same time, on two different continents, agricultural advancements created a new style of life. The available workforce that agriculture had created was reemployed in the construction of pyramids. This “template” is visible in Peru, Sumer and Egypt, all in the 3rd millennium BC. Coincidence, or evidence of design? Alternative researchers will certainly soon reopen this debate, but archaeologists steer well clear of it.

www.philipcoppens.com/caral.html

Sechin Bajo site

Caral also exhibits archaeologic similarities with ruins found in Ancient turkey. Even examples of Cyclopean Greek architecture show up in Caral. Some of the ruins even look like they could be sitting in a desolate desert in Egypt.
The amphitheater looks exactly like something we can see in ancient Greece. The Caral pyramid complex in Peru is staggering and ancient. The late Phil Coppens writes:

• The site is in fact so old that it predates the ceramic period, the reason why no pottery was found. Its importance resides in its domestication of plants, especially cotton, but also beans, squashes and guava.

http://xavianthaze.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-lost-pyramids-of-peru.html