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What does your religion say about rape?

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
The pope might be against rape, but the Bible sure isn't. In Old Testament law, a woman had to marry her rapist or be put to death. No penalty for the rapist though.

Under the Mosiac Law, if an 'engaged' girl committed fornication with another man, both she and the man were to be put to death. But if the girl screamed for help, this was taken as proof of her innocence. The man was put to death for his sin in which he forced her, and the girl was exonerated.—De 22:23-27.

The situation where the man was to marry the girl was in the case of a seduction of a virgin who was not engaged to be married. If she succumbed to the mans seduction, he was forced to marry her and he could never divorce her ever.
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
Thanks, everyone, for the responses thus far. I appreciate the range of responses from Eastern to Western thought and from various perspectives.

If I may...

Dear Mystic,

The Catholic Church considers rape to be an intrinsically evil act:

I would like to quote your source again, Vouthon, with your permission:

2356 Rape is the forcible violation of the sexual intimacy of another person. It does injury to justice and charity. Rape deeply wounds the respect, freedom, and physical and moral integrity to which every person has a right. It causes grave damage that can mark the victim for life. It is always an intrinsically evil act.

Is there anything in Catholic Church doctrine or essays that expand on the bolded part? Perhaps you also might be able to embellish on what the grave damage is, and what is the marking for life? That statement confuses me.

Note that rape is "an intrinsically evil act," meaning that it is evil at its very root and nothing justifies it.

It is simply put forcing someone against their will into sexual acts.

It sounds as if this is in accordance to secular law, as well. It's considered a violent crime and a felony.

In terms of criminal punishment, the Catholic Church teachings extend only to faith and morals. She does not have the authority invested by God to issue criminal punishments because the Christian Faith, unlike Judaism and Islam, does not have a divinely revealed law for society. We have no Shariah or Torah, as Pope Benedict XVI once explained:

With your permission, I'd like to quote Pope Benedict again from your first response:

"...Unlike other great religions, Christianity has never proposed a revealed law to the State and to society, that is to say a juridical order derived from revelation. Instead, it has pointed to nature and reason as the true sources of law – and to the harmony of objective and subjective reason, which naturally presupposes that both spheres are rooted in the creative reason of God. Christian theologians thereby aligned themselves with a philosophical and juridical movement that began to take shape in the second century B.C. In the first half of that century, the social natural law developed by the Stoic philosophers came into contact with leading teachers of Roman Law. Through this encounter, the juridical culture of the West was born, which was and is of key significance for the juridical culture of mankind. This pre-Christian marriage between law and philosophy opened up the path that led via the Christian Middle Ages and the juridical developments of the Age of Enlightenment all the way to the Declaration of Human Rights and to our German Basic Law of 1949, with which our nation committed itself to "inviolable and inalienable human rights as the foundation of every human community, and of peace and justice in the world..."

- Pope Benedict XVI, Reichstag Building, Berlin
Thursday, 22 September 2011

I would disagree with cultural Christianity as refraining from the public sphere, but I believe the spirit of the religion itself does urge it's followers to refrain from political influence explicitly. I do, however, separate culture from religion. So on one level I can see where Pope Benedict is coming from. However, I also see historically that cultural indoctrination through some imperialistic measures have heavily influenced and Christianized many judicial systems.

Could you expand on the Pope's statement?


Therefore it is the prerogative of the secular state to determine the appropriate punishment for offenders, not religion which is to do with the inner law of conscience.

Since the evil of rape can be discerned by every human conscience without the need for divine revelation or religious faith, it is to be hoped that any sane, civilized society will punish those who commit it justly.

That's fair.

Are there Catholic charities for rape survivors or awareness campaigns about rape that you are aware of?
 

Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
Under the Mosiac Law, if an 'engaged' girl committed fornication with another man, both she and the man were to be put to death. But if the girl screamed for help, this was taken as proof of her innocence. The man was put to death for his sin in which he forced her, and the girl was exonerated.—De 22:23-27.

The situation where the man was to marry the girl was in the case of a seduction of a virgin who was not engaged to be married. If she succumbed to the mans seduction, he was forced to marry her and he could never divorce her ever.

Funny. The Bible's clarity about rape is clear.

Numbers 31:15-18 "And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."


The Bible is exceedingly clear that the capture of virgins and rape is perfectly normal which I do agree with considering it is done in the nature of combat. Looting is looting after all and given the position not many people will deny its hedonistic fulfillment. We as humans love to conquer and take for ourselves whatever bauble please our desires.

But considering you are a Christian claiming moral supremacy I find this laughable. The Bible is entirely immoral by modern standards and promotes utter destruction. Choosing ot ignore does not change its contents.
 
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Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
My personal views about rape are not "modern" but rape in an established society is obviously bad and highly destructive. But being the inner anarchist who subscribes to a tribal viewpoint I will say that rape according to the thoughts of Veni, vidi, vici is well justified.
Remember that even America is founded upon this premise along with our very existence for food and personal gain. We come, we see and we conquer. To this very day our actions are not removed from the actions of tribal Barbarians of the Germanic tribal duration in Europe.
We just love assigning morality and ethics at the end followed by "survival" to justify them. Rape is no different no matter how awful it is. Another's suffering is another's pleasure.

The very existence of social order cannot be sustained because our supposed order is masked from its inherent disorder. Rape is as natural as stealing honestly.

I am not justifying it but I am simply saying that it cannot be helped. Perhaps my bleakness on life makes me say such things :D
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Thanks, everyone, for the responses thus far. I appreciate the range of responses from Eastern to Western thought and from various perspectives.

Dear Mystic,

Thank you for very much for your reply, I will answer to the best of my ability :)


I would like to quote your source again, Vouthon, with your permission

Of course!


Is there anything in Catholic Church doctrine or essays that expand on the bolded part? Perhaps you also might be able to embellish on what the grave damage is, and what is the marking for life? That statement confuses me.


The Catechism is here referring to the psychological damage that can result from rape and which can outlast even the physical harm done to the victim, making it impossible or difficult for them to lead a normal, happy life while the memory of their trauma remains with them.

The church is trying to explain that rape is not simply an evil physical act, it damages - sometimes for life - the psychological state and happiness of the victim. Rape can destroy lives without needing to murder the victims.

On other documents, I'd have to do some digging but the Ethical and Religious Directives for Catholic Health Care Services (no. 36) produced by the United States Catholic Bishops Conference, addresses rape (there are similar documents for other countries):


"...Compassionate and understanding care should be given to a person who is the victim of sexual assault. Health care providers should cooperate with law enforcement officials and offer the person psychological and spiritual support as well as accurate medical information. A female who has been raped should be able to defend herself against a potential conception from the sexual assault..."

The particular part that you noted "mark for life" is to do with the psychological effect.

This is why it is intrinsically evil and never capable of being justified under any circumstances.


It sounds as if this is in accordance to secular law, as well. It's considered a violent crime and a felony.

As it should I would think. :yes:



With your permission, I'd like to quote Pope Benedict again from your first response:

Sure thing.

I would disagree with cultural Christianity as refraining from the public sphere, but I believe the spirit of the religion itself does urge it's followers to refrain from political influence explicitly. I do, however, separate culture from religion. So on one level I can see where Pope Benedict is coming from. However, I also see historically that cultural indoctrination through some imperialistic measures have heavily influenced and Christianized many judicial systems.

Could you expand on the Pope's statement?

Jesus quite firmly taught that there were two spheres of authority: "Render to Caesar what is Caesar's and render to God what is God's". In the ancient world the Roman Emperor was the Pontifex Maximus of the Roman religion. Christianity held that only clerics could be religious authorities, not the Emperor.


"...There are two powers, august Emperor, by which this world is chiefly ruled, namely, the sacred authority of the priests and the royal power..."

- Letter of Pope Gelasius to Emperor Anastasius I (494)


There have been times in history when the church has been too powerful in society, forgetting that its sphere of influence is strictly limited to matters of conscience and not political authority which lies in the hands of "Caesar". At other times, as in Soviet Russia and revolutionary France, the church found the secular sphere encroaching too much upon it.

The pope is saying that Christianity must limit itself to forming consciences, rather than exercising any direct impact on law-making or politics.

Law is to be made by secular authorities, with separation between church and state. The church has no right to interfere, except when its own rights (ie to have Catholic schools, to hold church services and so forth) are challenged by the government.

Pope Benedict XVI believed very strongly in the two spheres doctrine (called "the two swords" in the Middle Ages).

From the pope's Encyclical "Caritas" 2009:


"...The just ordering of society and the State is a central responsibility of politics. . . . The State may not impose religion, yet it must guarantee religious freedom and harmony between the followers of different religions...The two spheres are distinct...This is where Catholic social doctrine has its place: it has no intention of giving the Church power over the State...Even less is it an attempt to impose on those who do not share the faith ways of thinking and modes of conduct proper to faith. Its aim is simply to help purify reason and to contribute, here and now, to the acknowledgment and attainment of what is just. The Church's social teaching argues on the basis of reason and natural law, namely, on the basis of what is in accord with the nature of every human being. It recognizes that it is not the Church's responsibility to make this teaching prevail in political life. Rather, the Church wishes to help form consciences in political life and to stimulate greater insight into the authentic requirements of justice as well as greater readiness to act accordingly, even when this might involve conflict with situations of personal interest. Building a just social and civil order, wherein each person receives what is his or her due, is an essential task which every generation must take up anew. As a political task, this cannot be the Church's immediate responsibility...The Church cannot and must not take upon herself the political battle to bring about the most just society possible. She cannot and must not replace the State. Yet at the same time she cannot and must not remain on the sidelines in the fight for justice. She has to play her part through rational argument and she has to reawaken the spiritual energy without which justice, which always demands sacrifice, cannot prevail and prosper. A just society must be the achievement of politics, not of the Church. Yet the promotion of justice through efforts to bring about openness of mind and will to the demands of the common good is something which concerns the Church deeply..."

- Pope Benedict XVI, Deus Caritas Est, 2009


Are there Catholic charities for rape survivors or awareness campaigns about rape that you are aware of?

There is a "rape crisis service" that I have heard of for the US (various ones in other countries). Its mentioned on the Mississippi Diocese in the US:

Catholic Charities Jackson Mississippi Diocese
 
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Sea Monkey

Pickle Juicer!
I do not have a Religion. Rape is a evil thing. Murder is a very evil thing as well... Punishment should be the death penalty or at least life in prison with no benefits.
 

Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
I do not have a Religion. Rape is a evil thing. Murder is a very evil thing as well... Punishment should be the death penalty or at least life in prison with no benefits.

Please describe to why rape is bad and killing an animal for food is not. Although we need not do either we prefer to do so out of simplicity of acquisition.

This is mankind in a nutshell. Welcome to the animal kingdom would be the proper greetings perhaps.

Let me give you a quote from Andrea Dworkin, The head fat ugly feminist......
"Marriage as an institution developed from rape as a practice. Rape, originally defined as abduction, became marriage by capture. Marriage meant the taking was to extend in time, to be not only use of but possession of, or ownership."

Nothing you hold sacred about interacting with others is sacred. Humans marry each other while animals rape. Very common amongst sharks i should add. On a purely secular level rape is a continuation of the species.


I am curious as to how you declare something evil. I have my set of morals but they do not make me think anything is wrong. I am very curious.
 

Sea Monkey

Pickle Juicer!
Please describe to why rape is bad and killing an animal for food is not. Although we need not do either we prefer to do so out of simplicity of acquisition.

This is mankind in a nutshell. Welcome to the animal kingdom would be the proper greetings perhaps.

Let me give you a quote from Andrea Dworkin, The head fat ugly feminist......
"Marriage as an institution developed from rape as a practice. Rape, originally defined as abduction, became marriage by capture. Marriage meant the taking was to extend in time, to be not only use of but possession of, or ownership."

Nothing you hold sacred about interacting with others is sacred. Humans marry each other while animals rape. Very common amongst sharks i should add. On a purely secular level rape is a continuation of the species.


I am curious as to how you declare something evil. I have my set of morals but they do not make me think anything is wrong. I am very curious.

I think killing animal's is wrong. I would declare the rape of a child evil. I would declare the murder of a baby evil. It just seem's so Unhuman to me. I used to have Depersonalization So I might not be the most caring person in the world but I do know evil friend. I do care about people and animal's. I also do have moral's.
 

Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
I think killing animal's is wrong. I would declare the rape of a child evil. I would declare the murder of a baby evil. It just seem's so Unhuman to me. I used to have Depersonalization So I might not be the most caring person in the world but I do know evil friend. I do care about people and animal's. I also do have moral's.

Please tell me why animals rape, molest and "wrongfully" kill all the time. Please tell me what is evil and how we can know something is evil.

Then describe to me why what you believe is evil and why others do not have the same concept
 

Sea Monkey

Pickle Juicer!
Please tell me why animals rape, molest and "wrongfully" kill all the time. Please tell me what is evil and how we can know something is evil.

Then describe to me why what you believe is evil and why others do not have the same concept

It is in the animal's nature I guess but I was talking about when human's kill animal's. I think killing a baby is evil I said that before. I believe it is evil cause the taking of innocent life is sickening. Other's could have the same concept of evil. What did you think about the Sandy Hook Mass shooting?
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Please tell me why animals rape, molest and "wrongfully" kill all the time. Please tell me what is evil and how we can know something is evil.

Then describe to me why what you believe is evil and why others do not have the same concept

If I humbly direct you to this thread, would you consider going there to discuss this topic?

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-debates/149819-morality-2.html

The guy who started it vanished on me, but you seem to have similar views to him, so you can sub in.
 
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