Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Instead of fasting for Lent, the past few years I have given an item each day to different charities.
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What Does Passover/Easter Holyday/Holiday Mean To You?
- Thread starter Elihoenai
- Start date
Elihoenai
Well-Known Member
Therefore, you have changed what the Lent Tradition Represents. Why did you stop Fasting for Lent? Don't you see any value in Fasting? Did you benefit from Fasting when you Fasted for Lent previously?
Lent
"Lent (Latin: Quadragesima,[1] 'Fortieth') is the solemn Christian religious observance in the liturgical year commemorating the 40 days Jesus spent fasting in the desert and enduring temptation by Satan, according to the Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke, before beginning his public ministry...."
"...Which days are enumerated as being part of Lent differs between denominations (see below), although in all of them Lent is described as lasting for a total duration of 40 days, the number of days Jesus, as well as Moses and Elijah, went without food in their respective fasts...."
"...Lent is a period of grief that necessarily ends with a great celebration of Easter. Thus, it is known in Eastern Orthodox circles as the season of "bright sadness" (Greek: χαρμολύπη, romanized: charmolypê).[22] The purpose of Lent is the preparation of the believer for Easter through prayer, mortifying the flesh, repentance of sins, almsgiving, simple living, and self-denial.[23] In Lent, many Christians commit to fasting, as well as giving up certain luxuries in imitation of Christ's sacrifice during his journey into the desert for 40 days;[24][25][26] this is known as one's Lenten sacrifice.[27] Prior to the 6th century, Lent was normatively observed through the practice of the Black Fast, which enjoins fasting from food and liquids, with the allowance of one vegetarian meal after sunset.[28][29][30] This form of fasting continues in certain denominations, such as the Coptic Orthodox Church...."
Lent - Wikipedia
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Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Actually since I am over 60, I don't have to fast at all, so I haven't changed anything.Therefore, you have changed what the Lent Tradition Represents. Why did you stop Fasting for Lent? Don't you see any value in Fasting? Did you benefit from Fasting when you Fasted for Lent previously?
Lent
"Lent (Latin: Quadragesima,[1] 'Fortieth') is the solemn Christian religious observance in the liturgical year commemorating the 40 days Jesus spent fasting in the desert and enduring temptation by Satan, according to the Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke, before beginning his public ministry...."
"...Which days are enumerated as being part of Lent differs between denominations (see below), although in all of them Lent is described as lasting for a total duration of 40 days, the number of days Jesus, as well as Moses and Elijah, went without food in their respective fasts...."
"...Lent is a period of grief that necessarily ends with a great celebration of Easter. Thus, it is known in Eastern Orthodox circles as the season of "bright sadness" (Greek: χαρμολύπη, romanized: charmolypê).[22] The purpose of Lent is the preparation of the believer for Easter through prayer, mortifying the flesh, repentance of sins, almsgiving, simple living, and self-denial.[23] In Lent, many Christians commit to fasting, as well as giving up certain luxuries in imitation of Christ's sacrifice during his journey into the desert for 40 days;[24][25][26] this is known as one's Lenten sacrifice.[27] Prior to the 6th century, Lent was normatively observed through the practice of the Black Fast, which enjoins fasting from food and liquids, with the allowance of one vegetarian meal after sunset.[28][29][30] This form of fasting continues in certain denominations, such as the Coptic Orthodox Church...."
Lent - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Passover and Easter are two completely different holidays for two completely different religions. Passover is a Jewish holy day that remembers the Exodus (as your verse above references.) Easter is a Christian celebration of the proposed resurrection of Jesus.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Revelation never mentions the Catholic church (unless of course you believe the churches addressed in the opening chapters are Catholic). There are symbolic references to pagan Rome, such as the "city on seven hills," and "666" (Caesar Nero adds to 666). It wasn't until hundreds of years later that Theodosius made Christianity the religion of the Roman Empire. Today, the Catholic church has its headquarters (the Vatican) in Vatican City, NOT in the city of Rome, and NOT on seven hills.
Elihoenai
Well-Known Member
Does that mean you have never Fasted for Lent? Were you born and raised Roman Catholic?
Elihoenai
Well-Known Member
1 Corinthians 5:7
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
Passover and Easter really have the same meaning when you take the Whole Holy Scriptures/Bible into consideration. You don't accept the New Testament, therefore, you view them as totally different.
Easter
Easter,[nb 1] also called Pascha[nb 2] (Aramaic, Greek, Latin) or Resurrection Sunday,[nb 3] is a Christian festival and cultural holiday commemorating the resurrection of Jesus from the dead, described in the New Testament as having occurred on the third day of his burial following his crucifixion by the Romans at Calvary c. 30 AD.[10][11] It is the culmination of the Passion of Jesus Christ, preceded by Lent (or Great Lent), a 40-day period of fasting, prayer, and penance.
Easter-observing Christians commonly refer to the week before Easter as Holy Week, which in Western Christianity begins on Palm Sunday (marking the entrance of Jesus in Jerusalem), includes Spy Wednesday (on which the betrayal of Jesus is mourned),[12] and contains the days of the Easter Triduum including Maundy Thursday, commemorating the Maundy and Last Supper,[13][14] as well as Good Friday, commemorating the crucifixion and death of Jesus.[15] In Eastern Christianity, the same events are commemorated with the names of days all starting with "Holy" or "Holy and Great", and Easter itself might be called "Great and Holy Pascha". In Western Christianity, Eastertide, or the Easter Season, begins on Easter Sunday and lasts seven weeks, ending with the coming of the 50th day, Pentecost Sunday. In Eastern Christianity, the Paschal season ends with Pentecost as well, but the leave-taking of the Great Feast of Pascha is on the 39th day, the day before the Feast of the Ascension.
Easter - Wikipedia
Rome is on 7 hills. And Nero never "deceived" those "who dwell on the earth (Rev 13:14). That was the "another beast", the "beast with two horns like a lamb" (Rev 13:11), Constantine, in which the two Christlike leaders, Peter and Paul, were made the foundations of the Roman church. Constantine built basilicas for each. The original version of Revelation 13:18 read 616, and that was the number of Constantine name. Constantine endeavored to change the "law and the times" (Daniel 7:25), with respect to the day of rest, when his decree of 321 A.D. declared the shops were to be closed on the day of his sun god Sol Invictus (Sunday), in which no one could buy or sell (Rev 13:17). The Gentile kingdoms of Daniel 2, included Rome, who now lives on through the vehicle of the Roman Church, whose core principle is the Trinity, set up by Constantine at his convened Council of Nicaea, and will continue to reign until judgment day (Daniel 2:26). Theodosius, in 380 A.D., simply made the church, based on the Trinity doctrine of the Nicene Council, 325 A.D., the official church, and then convened a church council to certify his decree. At that time he got rid of the Arian bishop, and as with Constantine, tried to unify the Roman empire under one religion, whose base religion was pagan. He did this under the same authority as taken by Caesar and Constantine, which was the position now held by the pope, Pontifex Maximus, but original held by the pagan high priests. The Roman church is not Babylon the Great, but simply a daughter of Babylon, and her pagan gods, now bowed down to by the Roman Church, in the form of the sun god (Sol Invictus), and the goddess of fertility, Astarte (Easter). Revelation 18:4 simply states for "my people" to come out of "her", which would refer to "Babylon the Great" (Rev 18:2).
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
As I'm a Jew and not a Christian, my interest in Christian apocalyptic literature is pretty minimal. I'm not really interested in writing the lengthy post that would be required to fully answer this. Rather, I would like to recommend a book for you, written by a Christian author, regarding the four views of Revelation. It is called, "Revelation: Four Views, A Parallel Commentary" by Steve Gregg. It will introduce you to the four different views Christians have had of Revelation: Historical (meaning that each of the trumpets, seals, etc. refer to a different time in church history, VERY popular among Protestants until fairly recently), Preterist (the view that everything in Revelation is actually referring to the Jewish Roman war in 66-74 CE, the view that I'm inclined towards), Futurist (the idea that Revelation is about end times, which grew more popular in the 19th and 20th centuries, and is clearly your own view), and Idealist (the idea that each of the passages have relevant messages that are applicable to the church today).
Constantine did indeed order the building of the first basilicas. But he never influenced Church doctrine -- this is a myth. He was not a bishop of the church (he didn't even become a Christian until his death bed) and had absolutely no authority in the church. Poor Constantine! Since the publication of the horrendously inaccurate "Constantine's Sword" he has been the victim of all sorts of stupid accusations divorced from actual history.
ROFL. Pin the tail on the anti-Christ.
Yes, he made Sunday a national holiday for Rome, given that both pagans AND CHRISTIANS were already using Sunday as their primary day of worship.
Nope. The four nations were: Babylonians, Medes, Persians, and Greeks.
This is another Constantine myth -- that he had anything at all to do with the rulings of Nicea. Sure, he asked the bishops to meet and iron out their differences. But he had no vote. He was not a bishop. IN FACT, Constantine was actually favorable to the OTHER side, the Arians (later in his life, when he was baptized, it was by an Arian bishop), so the council actually did the opposite of what he wanted.
Really? You think Constantine is still alive and ruling? This problem is above my pay grade.
Yes. But the Catholic church certainly existed before him. He simply made Christianity the state religion.
Another Constantine myth. Boy you are just full of them. All Constantine did was issue an edict reversing the persecutions, and allowing freedom of religion in the Empire.
Whoa there buddy. The Pope aka the bishop of Rome, was a totally different office than the Emperor. Confess, you got this idea from "Constantine's Sword," right?
To me, this simply comes across as Catholic bashing.
The Catholic church has nothing to do with these pagan deities. If you will read their actual catechism, instead of anti-Catholic propaganda, the only deity they worship is God, which they believe exists as three persons: father, son, and holy spirit. Nothing to do with Astarte or any sun god.
I don't mind people arguing against Catholic teachings. Hey, as a Jew, I take issue with quite a few. But the arguments need to be about things Catholics actually believe, not made up strawmen like these.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Sorry, I stand by what I said. Christians may use Passover as a metaphor for Jesus' death, but this is figurative, not literal. This passage doesn't actually claim that Christians keep the feast of Passover which remembers THE EXODUS. Notice there is nothing in your verse about THE EXODUS.
Sorry, The head of gold was Nebuchadnezzar, the breast of silver was Persia, in which the Medes were represented by the three bones in the mouth of the bear (Persia) with respect to Daniel 7:5, the thighs of bronze was the Macedonian empire, represented in Daniel 7:6 ,"like a leopard with four wings of a bird on its back and the beast had four heads, which represents the four generals of Alexander and his phalanx, which overwhelmed the Persians, and the legs of iron, which represents Rome, who according to Daniel 7:7 destroyed all the rest. We are now in the era of the feet of iron mixed with clay, which would include the inclusion of the Muslims with the iron of Rome, such as the combination of the Ottomans (Muslims) and Germany (Roman Kaiser'/Caesar) in the 1st World War, which set up the establishment of Israel when they were both defeated at Megiddo in 1918. The last place to find the meaning of Revelation, would be from "Christian" pastors. "Christianity" is the main target of Revelation, that is why Luther wanted to take it out of the canon of the bible. If you want clarity, look to the prophets. As with respect as to what happens to the nations/Gentiles, who "scattered you" go to Jeremiah 30:11, whereas they will be "destroyed". They are not destroyed as of today, as their kingdoms still exist, in which they won't end until Daniel 2:45, which is in the future. As for the truthfulness of what your "Christian" authors tell you, well look at Jeremiah 16:19, whereas they are giving you nothing but "falsehoods", which will eventually come to light after the "day of distress", which is described in Revelation 16:16 as Har-Magedon, or in Joel 2:31-32 as the "day of the LORD".
Constantine convened the Council of Nicaea at his summer palace for the sole reason of unifying his empire. As Ponifex Maximus, he was head of the pagan religion as well as all religions. His aim was to combine all the religions of his empire to unify his empire. He also appointed bishops, some of which were retired generals who could not even read or write. I suggest that you read the book Constantine the Great by Grant, an English historian. As for becoming a "Christian" at his death bed, that was a story by Eusebius, who stated that he would lie for the sake of his church. Eusebius was a leader of the Arians, which believed that there was no Trinity, and the writings of Arius had been outlawed and burned by Constantine, for the sake of his empire. It is doubtful that Eusebius actually baptized Constantine. The church was subsidized by the Roman empire, and both Arius's followers and Athanasius had been expelled from the empire in due course by Constantine, because they hadn't walked the line of the time, with respect to the Trinity doctrine. There was nothing "poor" about Constantine. Ruthless maybe, as he murdered his son and his wife. As for Theodosius, in 380 A.D., he dictated what dogma, Nicene Trinity doctrine, would be the core of the church. It was later that he convened a church council to stamp his edict in the year 381 A.D.
Well, being raised in a Catholic family, and going to a Catholic parochial school, I might know more than you might presume. The Catholics basically kneel and pray to the queen of heaven, who is now supposedly Mary. In our church, we also had a statue of Joseph to pray to. The church of Babel also had a sun god, who was Bel. They also worshipped a Trinity of gods. As with "Christians" they also worshipped a fir tree in the image of Nimrod coming to life every year. It was at the Council of Nicaea in which Easter was introduced, and the feast of Astarte was the date used, the spring festival of Astarte, the god of fertility. This was done to obfuscate the feast of Unleavened Bread, which is called Passover by the Jews. Passover is actually the 14th of Nissan, the day previous to the passing over of the angels of death.
I never heard of your "Constantine's sword". The office of pontifex maximus comes from the high priest of the pagan religion and was held by Caesar and the following Caesar Agustus. Pontifex maximus - Wikipedia It has the role of keeper of the gods and the calendar. You now use the Gregorian (pope) calendar, an update of the Julian (Roman emperor) calendar. Constantine simply changed the day of rest to the day of his sun god, Sol Invictus. But he also had the law changed as far as the 1st commandment, in that there was to be only one god (Daniel 7:25). Getting your information from the "Christians" and the "scribes" (Jeremiah 8:8), has to be a little confusing.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I think you have misunderstood her. She didn't change Lenten tradition. She is simply pointing out that the reason she doesn't fast is because she is over 60 and it is no longer required by that tradition. As a Jew used to fasting on Yom Kippur and other days, religions generally provide exceptions such as pregnancy, illness, being a kid, etc.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Well you may never have heard of the book, but you are paraphrasing its absurd claims. My best guess is that if we tracked down your sources, and the sources of your sources, that we would eventually end up at "Constantine's Sword."
The term Pontifex Maximus comes from ancient Rome, and tends to refer to the highest priest of the College of Pontiffs. Because Emperors were not only secular rulers, but also had religious authority, presiding over the Roman state religion, conducting pagan ceremonies, etc., they were sometimes also called Pontifex Maximus. Later in history, the term was adopted by Christians to refer to the Bishop of Rome (aka the Pope). Don't make the mistake of confusing the Roman pagan use with the Christian use. Constantine was in no way, shape, size or form the Pope. He was not even a bishop. Until his deathbed, he was not even a Christian.
As far as changing the sabbath to Sunday, nope. Constantine had nothing to do with that. The church was worshiping on Sunday for centuries before Constantine declared Sunday a state holiday (not just for Christians, but also for pagans who also set aside Sunday). If you read early Church writings, the Gentile churches completely abandoned the Jewish Sabbath, replacing it with The Lord's Day, which was the day Jesus purportedly rose from the dead (meaning, SUNDAY). Here is a late 1st century quote from Ignatius' Epistle to the Magnesians, Chapter 9:
"If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, NO LONGER OBSERVING THE SABBATH, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death."
I have no idea why you are talking about the calendars. There is no significance to calendars. They are simply different ways that humans have developed to mark time, whether it is the Jewish calendar, or the Roman one, of the Chinese one, etc. Same can be said for any divisions such as how many days are in a month, or how many days are in a week. This is basically nothing but a red herring.Nor do I understand why you think Constantine somehow altered the first commandment (I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery). The same seventeen verses Exodus 20 that give the 10 commandments were there before Constantine, and still there after Constantine. True, different religious communities do group these seventeen verses differently, so that Catholic, Protestants and Jews have different verses they designate as "the second commandment." But absolutely none of these groups take any verses away. The point is, Constantine changed absolutely nothing regarding the commandments.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Don't assume that because I'm a Jew, that I am not well educated about Catholicism. I have spent my life studying world religions. I have spent more time studying Christianity -- it is after all the dominant religion in our culture. I do not claim to be a scholar, but I would say I know much more about Catholicism than your typical Catholic in the pew, especially those of the generation where (they tell me) catechesis was scandalously bad. You can ask other Catholics in this forum, like Merit, if I don't do a good job accurately representing Catholic teaching. So please, don't condescend to me.
Nothing "now" about it. Catholics have always thought of Mary as the queen of heaven, based on two arguments. The first is that she is wearing a crown while standing on the earth and moon in the description of her in Revelation 12. The second is their awareness that in ancient Israel, where polygamy among Kings was the norm, the Queen was not any wife of the King, but his mother. Thus, they reason, if Jesus is the King of Kings, then Mary is the Queen mother.
Personally, I find it ridiculous. But then again, I find so many Christian claims ridiculous. My point here is not to argue my own view on Mary, but to accurately state what Catholic teaching is.
The phrase "Queen of Heaven" is used by more than one religious group. It DOES NOT FOLLOW that they are all referring to the same person. It's simply an unwarranted conclusion on your part. It really doesn't matter that Ishtar, Isis, Juno, or Hera were all also called Queen of heaven. None of those gods are the same as each other, nor are they the same as Mary.
Since you were raised Catholic, you should be familiar with the Catechism, which makes it ABSOLUTELY CLEAR that only God is to be worshiped, God as seen as teh Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. No room in there for Mary. She is adored, certainly. I think they call it "hyper-dulia." But they make sure to note that this is NOT the same as the worship they give only to God.
Yes, Catholics are well known for their inspirational art. To be fair, they don't talk to the statues. They talk to the saints they represent, asking these saints for their prayers. The statues are just a visual assist.
I googled "church of babel" and the only thing that came up was one website that was referring to the religion of the people who built the tower of Babel. I could find nothing about this religion. I think you are making stuff up, but for the sake argument, let's assume you are correct that these Babylonians had a sun god named Bel.
So? This is completely irrelevant. There are gazillion different religions in the world, and a gazillion times infinity number of deities. So what?
Whoa baby. Believing in three gods is polytheism. Catholics are not polytheists. You will recall that the first sentence of the Creed which you professed at every Mass was "We believe in ONE God." Now, I personally find the teaching of the Trinity to be absolutely preposterous, since something cannot be one thing and three things (that are not parts) simultaneously. But that is exactly what Catholic teaching is: One God, a single essence, but functioning as three distinct persons. As absurd and unreasonable as that is, it simply is NOT the same thing as "three gods."
ROFL You just go from the frying pan into the fire with no awareness at all. No Christian has ever worshiped a fir tree. When you throw out ridiculous claims like that, you not only do NOT make Christians look bad since everyone simply laughs, but you make yourself look like... gee how do I say this nicely?
The early Christian Church celebrated Easter as early as the 2nd century AD, although the precise date and manner of celebration varied among different Christian communities.
There was a HUGE debate in the early church whether it should be observed during the Jewish Passover, or whether the Church should break ties with Judaism and choose a fixed day on the Julian calendar. Tertullian, in his treatise "On the Resurrection of the Flesh," (208-212 CE) argues for the resurrection of Jesus as the central event of Easter, regardless of its timing relative to Passover.
The modern figuring was indeed decided at Nicea, but not by Constantine. The only people who had a vote at Nicea were the Christian bishops.
Yes, I agree. The church was incredibly antisemitic and anti-Judaism. There was a big push to irradicate all vestigial Jewish practices, including the celebration of Passover, keeping the Sabbath, eating kosher, etc.
FWIW (let's not make a big deal of this) technically Passover is a separate holy day from the Feast of Unleavened Bread. They run consecutively, not concurrently.
Yes, for JUDAISM. Christianity is an entirely different religion, which no longer celebrates Passover. If you want to talk about Judaism, I'm game. But let's not muck up a discussion about Christianity by inserting comments about Judaism.
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Constantine's sword was written in 2001. My source concerning the history of Constantine the Great, was written by an English historian in the early 20th century. Constantine was not a bishop, he was as Julius Caesar, the Pontifex Maximus, he was in charge of all the Roman bishops, as well as the leader of the pagan church until it could be consolidated with the "Christian" church, which was done, as the traditions, such as Christmas and Easter are basically pagan events, celebrated on pagan holidays. The 25th of December is the birthdate of Sol Invictus. And as I said before, it is doubtful that Constantine got baptized, and especial not by a leader of the Arian faction, Eusebius, who was the cleric and historian of Constantine, as well as the Christian historian, and said he lied in favor of the church.
Sol Invictus: The Unconquered Sun Deity in Ancient Roman Religion - World History Edu
In the later Roman Empire, the worship and cult of the Roman god Sol Invictus became prominent. Revered as the patron deity of the sun, he was worshiped as a...
worldhistoryedu.com
When you go to "confession", the priest gives you a penance. And the penance is to pray " Hail Mary". Mary is dead, and buried, in spite of the pope saying she went to heaven. As for Catechism, I am sure, you, as a Jew from southern California, you know more than I do, as I only went to Catechism class. What will you do when all of your "Christian" friends fall off the earth into the sea with regard to the earthquake of (Rev 16:18-20)? The only ones' to "escape" the "day of the LORD" (Joel 2:31-32) are those in Jerusalem and on Mount Zion.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Which was whom?
Yes.
Nope. Not even a little bit. The Christian church at that time was completely independent of the Roman government.
Yes. As I concurred in my earlier post, the Emperor was a religious authority in the pagan, state religion.
ROFL. Well, I'm going to move past this nonsense. Usually I deal with them in detail when forums get the usual shlew of "this holiday is pagan" posts at the times of these holy days. Over the years I have learned an incredible amount regarding these ridiculous claims and what the actual historical facts are simply by doing relentless googling when the subjects came up. Since this is not the season for either Easter nor Christmas, I'm going to hang tight and not go into detail.
All I will do is make the following general statement: any holy day of any religion is for whatever reasons they state it is for. Things like what other religions have similar holy days or that they coincidently fall on the same day or whether this or that tradition has been adopted and "baptised" so to speak, are all RED HERRINGS. They are insignificant points that say NOTHING. In Christianity, Christmas is the Feast of the Nativity of Jesus, and Resurrection Sunday is about his reputed rising from the dead. Neither of those two things has anything whatsoever to do with paganism. And that is ALL you need to know.
As I said, RED HERRING. Did you know that in some bishoprics, Christmas was celebrated on Dec 25 BEFORE Sol Invictus became a pagan holiday?
I'm sorry, dude, but we know for a fact that Constantine was baptized a Christian in 337 CE, shortly before his death. He was baptized by Eusebius of Nicomedia, an Arian bishop.