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I agree. The prophecies are very clear. And being fulfilled even now, by David, by Elijah and by Jesus. Thank you for proving the point, yet again, that the messiah is Jesus.. Seeing as there still hasn't been a single Jew yet, to step up, or that I've spoken to, who can provide even an explanation of how the prophecies fit together for an alternative.. I suggest you at least consider your own position, because at this point you can't even reconsider.
Isn't a prophecy a prediction? And, a fulfilled prophecy an event that matches that prediction?None of Matthew's fulfillments are direct quotes nor have source text that predicts anything
Matthew 2:15 ---- Hosea 11:1 ------> No prediction
Matthew 2:17 ----- Jeremiah 31:15 -----> No prediction
Matthew 2:23 ----- NO OT QUOTE ---> No prediction
Matthew 13:14 ----- Isaiah 6:9 SOURCE DIFFERS ----> Also no prediction
Matthew 13:35 ------ Psalm 78:2 ----> No prediction
Matthew 26:54 ------ NO OT QUOTE ----> No prediction
Matthew 26:56 ------ NO OT QUOTE ----> No prediction
Matthew 27:9 ------ allusion in Jer, Quote in Zech ----> Also no prediction
It is clear that Matthew 1:22 should not, must not and never ought to be a direct quote of any scripture
That implies the Law doesnt it? Which group of Christians even cares about anything to do with Jewish Law? Maybe the Ebionites and Nazarenes? Can mainstream Christianity answer CMike's list of prophecies? Other than saying that they will be fulfilled in the second coming? Yet the "prophecies" that Christians can claim as being fulfilled are all vague and many are out of context.24. And My servant David shall be king over them, and one shepherd shall be for them all, and they shall walk in My ordinances and observe My statutes and perform them.
Most Christians I know believe this is true, yet, when it comes to CMike's list, they say those won't happen until the end? So, they "all" haven't been fulfilled--the hard ones to fake, the ones that if they were fulfilled would be obvious.God, Jesus' Father had these things recorded by Isaiah, and Jesus fulfilled every prophecy recorded about him, Matt 5:18, Luke 24:44-50.
Just before Jesus died on the tree, he said that it was finished, meaning that he had fulfilled all the prophecies about the Messiah, John 19:28-30.
"...was born"? How do I know? Trust Matthew's word? Even if he "neglected its context"?Jesus was born of virginity, regardless of what verse was given. If Matthew selected a verse but neglected its context, in the face of Scripture and among those who know it by heart- what is the implication?
And HonestJoe in post #6Its a verse the author of Matthew pulled out of context from Isaiah to construct the virgin birth
The Hebrew word isn't even virgin, and there's nothing prophetic about its original setting.
And again Rainbow Mage in posts #8 and #10all this assumes that Jesus' virgin birth wasn't just an invention for the very purpose of fulfilling this prophesy.
Exactly. There's way too much supposed fulfilled prophesy, proving Jesus's mythology was constructed from the OT among other places
Matthew tried to make Hosea fit Jesus as well, when it isn't-
When Israel was a child I loved him, and out Egypt I called my son
Christians are taught that Jesus had to fulfill certain prophecies, the ones in the NT. In the minds of those that choose to believe, these are real prophecies and they were fulfilled by only one person, Jesus. Did he go to Egypt? Was he born from a virgin? Did he ride into town on a donkey? So what, and how is anyone going to know for sure? The big question is: When are CMike's list of prophecies going to happen? And, will it still be Jesus as the one who is doing the fulfilling?Some of Jesuss followers believed he was the messiah. If the messiah must fulfill specific prophesies and his followers believe Jesus is the messiah, then in the minds of his followers Jesus must have fulfilled those prophesies, regardless if his followers seen them fulfilled or not.
Not necessarily. Matthew 3:5 is a good example where Jesus gets baptized by John, he says "To fulfill all righteousness." Here we have fulfillment of an event that was never predicted, yet it does have meaning. John is 'Elijah' which makes Jesus 'Elisha'. The fulfillment is at least in this case not the fulfillment of a prediction but of imagery. It is far different from what I once thought a fulfillment was.CG Didymus said:Isn't a prophecy a prediction? And, a fulfilled prophecy an event that matches that prediction?
Not necessarily. Matthew 3:5 is a good example where Jesus gets baptized by John, he says "To fulfill all righteousness." Here we have fulfillment of an event that was never predicted, yet it does have meaning. John is 'Elijah' which makes Jesus 'Elisha'. The fulfillment is at least in this case not the fulfillment of a prediction but of imagery. It is far different from what I once thought a fulfillment was.
Considering the culture at the time, a maiden (young girl) would be a virgin because that is what was required of young girls...they remained chaste in virginity while unmarried.
Did he go to Egypt? Yes, if it is interpreted allegorically. He stayed there until Herod's death in order to fulfill what was declared by the Lord through the prophet when he said, "Out of Egypt I called my Son." (Matt. 2:15). The author of Matthew is quoting from Hosea 11:1, When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. The nation of Israel is Gods first born. Jesus is meant as a personification of Israel.Brickjectivity in post #93 said:
Isn't a prophecy a prediction? And, a fulfilled prophecy an event that matches that prediction?
In CMikes list of prophecies in post #85 one of them was: That implies the Law doesnt it? Which group of Christians even cares about anything to do with Jewish Law? Maybe the Ebionites and Nazarenes? Can mainstream Christianity answer CMike's list of prophecies? Other than saying that they will be fulfilled in the second coming? Yet the "prophecies" that Christians can claim as being fulfilled are all vague and many are out of context.
As jtartar said in post #41
Most Christians I know believe this is true, yet, when it comes to CMike's list, they say those won't happen until the end? So, they "all" haven't been fulfilled--the hard ones to fake, the ones that if they were fulfilled would be obvious.
Sleepy in post #51 said: "...was born"? How do I know? Trust Matthew's word? Even if he "neglected its context"?
I have to go with Rainbow Mage in post #3:
And HonestJoe in post #6
And again Rainbow Mage in posts #8 and #10
What Roger 1440 said in post #48 is very true:
Some of Jesuss followers believed he was the messiah. If the messiah must fulfill specific prophesies and his followers believe Jesus is the messiah, then in the minds of his followers Jesus must have fulfilled those prophesies, regardless if his followers seen them fulfilled or not.
Christians are taught that Jesus had to fulfill certain prophecies, the ones in the NT. In the minds of those that choose to believe, these are real prophecies and they were fulfilled by only one person, Jesus. Did he go to Egypt? Was he born from a virgin? Did he ride into town on a donkey? So what, and how is anyone going to know for sure? The big question is: When are CMike's list of prophecies going to happen? And, will it still be Jesus as the one who is doing the fulfilling?
It mentions sprinkling, but it says in the same breathe the people of Israel will be gathered into their own land from the nations where they had(ve) been dispersed to. If it is John's Baptism then there is some difficulty, because this did not literally happen during John's lifetime. On the other hand John B. may have preached that despite Roman occupation and enslaved Jews throughout the Empire that this cleansing was part of his baptism. Some questions I don't ever expect to have answered, and this one is looking complicated.Sleeppy said:Ezekiel 36 mentions John's baptism.
It mentions sprinkling, but it says in the same breathe the people of Israel will be gathered into their own land from the nations where they had(ve) been dispersed to. If it is John's Baptism then there is some difficulty, because this did not literally happen during John's lifetime. On the other hand John B. may have preached that despite Roman occupation and enslaved Jews throughout the Empire that this cleansing was part of his baptism. Some questions I don't ever expect to have answered, and this one is looking complicated.
Brickjectivity talked about a fulfillment not being based on a prediction but of imagery. In post #109 referring to Ezekiel 36, he added:The prophecies don't all happen at once...
And Roger1440 said in response to the question if Jesus really went to Egypt that:It mentions sprinkling, but it says in the same breathe the people of Israel will be gathered into their own land from the nations where they had(ve) been dispersed to. If it is John's Baptism then there is some difficulty, because this did not literally happen during John's lifetime.
So prophecies can be broken up into pieces and fulfilled centuries later? They can be "imagery"? They can be allegorical? Words within a verse can be shuffled or changed to suit the "fulfillment"? Like Ezekiel 36:25 in my Bible does say "sprinkle." Isn't baptism supposed to be immersion?Yes, if it is interpreted allegorically.
Zechariah the prophet is (likely) talking about a ritual washing which is a restoration of people to fellowship. That ritual washing is likely what baptism and sprinkling come from. For Historical background there is a short text called the Didache from around 200AD which discusses whether to dunk new converts or sprinkle them depending upon whether cold running water is available. Many people think the Did-ache is a genuine record, so it could be that sprinkling and immersion are equivalent. I don't personally think that there ought to be disputes about something so vaguely understood.CG Didymus said:So prophecies can be broken up into pieces and fulfilled centuries later? They can be "imagery"? They can be allegorical? Words within a verse can be shuffled or changed to suit the "fulfillment"? Like Ezekiel 36:25 in my Bible does say "sprinkle." Isn't baptism supposed to be immersion?
A lot of people want to write them off, because they are difficult to deal with. I sincerely hope that doesn't happen.My main problem is with those Christians that pretend they believe the Bible literally but use imagery, allegory etc as loopholes to get the Bible to say whatever they want it to say.
Well, what are you? I'll listen to you. Actually, I tried to believe as a literal Christian. The problem was that I was first a Baha'i. One week I preached to Christians that Jesus had returned as the new prophet for this time, Baha'u'llah. The next week I converted to Christianity and preached to the Baha'is that they needed to be saved. As the story goes, I went to a Jew and asked that since they both say they came from Judaism, what do you say. He told me and I quit both Christianity and the Baha'i Faith and decided I had better ask a lot of questions before I commit to any one religion again. It's been 30 years. But, I will listen to you. Your religion of "Hope" sounds pretty good.A lot of people want to write them off (the literal believers), because they are difficult to deal with. I sincerely hope that doesn't happen.
My main problem is with those Christians that pretend they believe the Bible literally but use imagery, allegory etc as loopholes to get the Bible to say whatever they want it to say. I can use those things also. Jesus is like the One True God compared to us. He, in essence, rose from the dead to make us spiritually alive, Jesus did return, in Spirit etc, etc, but then I become a new ager or a Baha'i. And then all the born-againers complain that I'm not taking the Bible literally. So where do you draw the line?
Nothing in the Torah, prophets or scriptures infers, implies, or states any prophesy related to jesus and/or his minions.Ezekiel 36 mentions John's baptism.
The messiah doesn't end death. The messiah will have no divine power.The prophecies don't all happen at once. It's happening now that Israel has its borders and Jews have a target to go into. But Israel could never truly have borders. The Messiah is supposed to rule the Earth and the heavens/space. Because He ends death and resurrects the entire history of mankind. So naturally, with so many sons promised for Israel and otherwise, the eternal King of Kings must expand the borders of Israel to accommodate. Jesus said He would prepare many rooms in Heaven.
The messiah doesn't end death. The messiah will have no divine power.
Only G-D can end death and have other divine powers.
And it says that where?