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What does God do when Jesus becomes ruler over the created world?

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
God created the world for the Son in humanity whom He loves the most. When Jesus is appointed as that Son, and proves himself to be so by setting to rights the world he is to inherit, God makes him the RULER of it.

But God is still the ruler over Heaven. What does God do now?

I know that any answer is purely speculative so I am willing also to explore everything leading up to God relinquishing the created world to the Son of His love.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
God created the world for the Son in humanity whom He loves the most. When Jesus is appointed as that Son, and proves himself to be so by setting to rights the world he is to inherit, God makes him the RULER of it.
Just who will be in charge on earth as a result of the Apocalypse is a matter of some ambiguity. The job title appears to be Son of Man, and the NT is ambiguous as to whether Jesus is the Son of Man or someone else is. The alternative appears to have been Enoch, who in the Tanakh didn't die but went to live with God, and who was favored for the job in the apocalyptic politics of Jesus' times.

And in Matthew 28:18, but nowhere else, following Jesus' resurrection, God resigns as ruler in heaven and on earth, and presumably these days may be found down at the Celestial Golf Club with the other divine retirees, Zeus, Moloch, Thoth &c &c.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
God created the world for the Son in humanity whom He loves the most. When Jesus is appointed as that Son, and proves himself to be so by setting to rights the world he is to inherit, God makes him the RULER of it.

But God is still the ruler over Heaven. What does God do now?

I know that any answer is purely speculative so I am willing also to explore everything leading up to God relinquishing the created world to the Son of His love.
I believe since Jesus is God in the flesh then He rules over earth as well.
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
I believe since Jesus is God in the flesh then He rules over earth as well.
Who is it that raised up Jesus from the dead and seated him next to God:
  • ‘[God? The Father?] raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms’ (Ephesians 1:20)
Muffled, you know that what you said makes no sense. Why do you persist in portraying falseness as truth? It will do you no good on the day of judgement.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
God created the world for the Son in humanity whom He loves the most. When Jesus is appointed as that Son, and proves himself to be so by setting to rights the world he is to inherit, God makes him the RULER of it.

But God is still the ruler over Heaven. What does God do now?

I know that any answer is purely speculative so I am willing also to explore everything leading up to God relinquishing the created world to the Son of His love.
The kingdom that Jesus established is spiritual, its already here and he's already ruling in the heart of the believer. God the Father is still in heaven and so is the Son of God at the place that he has been from the eternal past.
 

setarcos

The hopeful or the hopeless?
Just who will be in charge on earth as a result of the Apocalypse is a matter of some ambiguity
Your a tad off here I think. The verse in Mathew for you quoted out of many makes that clear. It is Jesus the Christ.
The job title appears to be Son of Man, and the NT is ambiguous as to whether Jesus is the Son of Man or someone else is.
Again...a tad off. Perhaps your not understanding what is meant by Son of Man? Jesus refers to himself as the "Son of Man" some 80 times in the NT. Son of Man is meant to mean born human. In refence to Jesus it is meant to emphasize his humanity and his being subject to human trials.
Technically anyone born a human can be referred to as a son of man.
The alternative appears to have been Enoch, who in the Tanakh didn't die but went to live with God, and who was favored for the job in the apocalyptic politics of Jesus' times.
Could you refence this? I know of no Jewish traditions of the time that considered Enoch to be the Messiah.
As a matter of fact...part of Jesus problem with the Jews at the time is that most of them, while not knowing who the Messiah would be, certainly decided that it wasn't Jesus - hence his eventual execution. They didn't ask Jesus if he thought he was Enoch returned to rule. Nothing was ever mentioned about Enoch returning to rule as the messiah.
God resigns as ruler in heaven and on earth, and presumably these days may be found down at the Celestial Golf Club with the other divine retirees, Zeus, Moloch, Thoth &c &c.
Hee...larius, but your misrepresenting the truth and misunderstanding the Christian concept of God. God still sustains all of creation. Jesus has been given absolute authority over what is sustained in creation. Authority has been given but that authority must still be sustained.
A feeble attempt to explain with example would be like a Judge has authority to hand down punishment or reward in our society. However that authority would me meaningless without some power beyond the judge which sustains such authority. Imagine a Judge handing down a punishment to a criminal and the criminal just saying "I don't think so and walking away." Without some form of enforceable authority that's exactly what would happen.
The devils in the details but that's the gist of the thing.
 

vulcanlogician

Well-Known Member
What does God do now?

Can't say that I can make decisions better than God himself. But what I would do, if I were God, would be to summon a bunch of giant scorpions to sting the sinners and make them suffer for several weeks. I would ensure that the scorpions' sting would not only induce suffering, but keep the recipient alive in a perpetual state of torment.

After they eventually die, I'd send them to a place where they would suffer perpetually for eternity.

I suppose it's obvious that that is what a good and just God would do. Sorry for stating the obvious.

But obvious as it is, I think it bears repeating.
 

setarcos

The hopeful or the hopeless?
The kingdom that Jesus established is spiritual, its already here and he's already ruling in the heart of the believer.
Its my understanding that the Kingdom that Jesus will establish will be absolute.
However, as scripture says...all manner of evil comes out of the hearts of man...even the believer. For the believer while Satan is loose upon the world still has tribulations, suffering, and periods of weakness. Paul spoke of these things, even about himself.
So, one might ask, what do you mean by "ruling"?
 

setarcos

The hopeful or the hopeless?
Can't say that I can make decisions better than God himself. But what I would do, if I were God, would be to summon a bunch of giant scorpions to sting the sinners and make them suffer for several weeks. I would ensure that the scorpions' sting would not only induce suffering, but keep the recipient alive in a perpetual state of torment.

After they eventually die, I'd send them to a place where they would suffer perpetually for eternity.

I suppose it's obvious that that is what a good and just God would do. Sorry for stating the obvious.

But obvious as it is, I think it bears repeating.
Hell is what we make of it. And we make pretty decent hells for ourselves if you ask me. All God has to do is remove itself from your picture at your own request. That is hell and that is what a lot of people request. Then of course like a bunch of Karen's they blame God for their own request.
 

vulcanlogician

Well-Known Member
Hell is what we make of it. And we make pretty decent hells for ourselves if you ask me. All God has to do is remove itself from your picture at your own request. That is hell and that is what a lot of people request. Then of course like a bunch of Karen's they blame God for their own request.

I'm not in the practice of doubting gods. All I'm saying is, the more torment-inducing scorpions the better. And of course, eternal torment to follow. You're pro scorpion too aren't ya brotha?
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
I believe since Jesus is God in the flesh then He rules over earth as well.
Muffled, I hear you saying you believe the lie but the real question is ‘Why?’.

How could Jesus be ‘ruler over earth’ when Satan made him an offer to have if Jesus knelt down and worshipped him (Satan)?

Jesus was DESTINED to rule over the earth WHEN he satisfactorily completed his commission - the commission set to him BY GOD!

Satan was trying to bribe Jesus with gaining the rulership because Satan knew he would have to relinquish to a human being:
  • ‘It is mine to give to whom I will…!
And later on, after Jesus had triumphed, sayjng, ‘It is done!!’, he says of Satan:
  • ‘Woe to the world because the prince of this world has come into his realm - And he is exceedingly angry!!’ (Paraphrased)
But you are saying that GOD was tempted by Satan who tried to bribe God with what God already was the owner of? I can’t quite get what you are saying!!!

Surely God created the physical world (earth) to be ruled over by a physical human Being made in his image - just as God, who is spirit, rules over the spirit realm (Heaven)!
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Can't say that I can make decisions better than God himself. But what I would do, if I were God, would be to summon a bunch of giant scorpions to sting the sinners and make them suffer for several weeks. I would ensure that the scorpions' sting would not only induce suffering, but keep the recipient alive in a perpetual state of torment.

After they eventually die, I'd send them to a place where they would suffer perpetually for eternity.

I suppose it's obvious that that is what a good and just God would do. Sorry for stating the obvious.

But obvious as it is, I think it bears repeating.
perpetually for eternity.
Isn’t that what is called, ‘Tautology’…

By the way, a just ‘God’ gives a limit to the number of attempts to reform the errant individual and then he DESTROYS him… not punish him eternally!!

Even in our human minds, image of God, we forgive and attempt to reform a criminal. Maybe give him several chances… and then we LOCK HIM AWAY FOR HIS LIFE SPAN.

God has dictated that we should not murder [without His authority] and to leave ULTIMATE JUDGEMENT to Him (through his Son Jesus Christ at the mercy seat). That is why we don’t (at least not in the UK) now have a Death Penalty. We can only incarcerate them and leave ultimate justice to God!! Of course I’m speaking of WICKED persons.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
Its my understanding that the Kingdom that Jesus will establish will be absolute.
However, as scripture says...all manner of evil comes out of the hearts of man...even the believer. For the believer while Satan is loose upon the world still has tribulations, suffering, and periods of weakness. Paul spoke of these things, even about himself.
So, one might ask, what do you mean by "ruling"?
The will of God in the heart of the believer is God ruling in his kingdom. The Israelites confused it for a material kingdom.
 

vulcanlogician

Well-Known Member
Isn’t that what is called, ‘Tautology’…

Say what you will about tautologies. Maybe you think they're useless. But at least they're true. They're a logical certainty. They MUST be true.

That's more than I can say for some points of view.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Your a tad off here I think. The verse in Mathew for you quoted out of many makes that clear. It is Jesus the Christ.
Yes, checking my sources, I'll need to reword my previous reply. What's clear in the NT is that while Jesus identifies with the Son of man (a title for a human in the Tanakh except twice in Daniel where it stands for God's agent, as here) but repeatedly using the phrase instead of "I" in particular contexts ─ which seemed to me to imply that he wasn't the Son of Man on this trip, and would only be so when he returned as God's viceroy. It's such a constant it seems to imply something, but I can't maintain the case for my previous statement. I notice the NT Greek is τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου, which actually translates as "the son of the man" which sounds odd.

The Enoch part is from Ehrman's How Jesus Became God (2014) which says (p. 68) ─

In an interesting and compelling study, Alan Segal, a scholar of ancient Judaism, argues that early rabbis were particularly concerned about a notion, which was evidently widespread in parts of Judaism, that along with God in heaven there was a second power on the divine throne. Following these Jewish sources, Segal refers to these two—God and the other—as the "two powers in heaven."14 The Son of Man figure whom we have just examined would be one such divine figure, as he shares the status and power of God. But there evidently were others who were candidates for this celestial honor, and the rabbis who were concerned about regulating what Jews should think and believe found such views unnerving, so much so that they went on the attack against them. Their attacks were effective, more or less silencing those who ascribed to these views.​
Segal's careful analysis shows that those who held to the "heretical" notion of two powers maintained that the second power was either some kind of angel or a mystical manifestation of a divine characteristic thought to be in some sense equal with God (discussed more below). They subscribed to this notion because of their interpretations of certain passages in the Bible, such as those that describe the Angel of the Lord as bearing the divine name himself, or Daniel 7 and its reference to "the one like a son of man"—a figure independent of God who is given eternal power and dominion. Yet other passages could lead to a "two-powers" doctrine, such as Genesis 1:26, in which God, in creating humans, says, "Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness." Why is God speaking in the plural: "us" and "our"? According to the two-powers heresy, it was because another divine figure was with him. This also could be the person that the "elders bf Israel" saw sitting on the divine throne in Exodus 24:9-10. This figure is called the God of Israel, but the people actually saw him. Elsewhere, even within the book of Exodus, it is explicitly stated that no one can see God and live (Exod. 33:20). Yet they did see God and they did live. They must, then, have seen the second power, not God.​
The rabbis of the second, third, fourth, and following centuries CE condemned any such notion as a heresy. But, again, the fact that they condemned it shows that it was a view held by other Jews, and since the rabbis condemned it so thoroughly, it was probably held by a large number of Jews. Segal argues that this heresy can be traced back to the first Christian century and to Palestine itself. He maintains that one obvious target for such views were the Christians, who elevated Christ—as we will see—to the level of God. But it wasn't only Christians who held to the two-powers heresy. Non-Christian Jews did as well, on the basis of their interpretation of passages from the Hebrew Bible.​

Hee...larius, but your misrepresenting the truth and misunderstanding the Christian concept of God.
The claim is only found in Matthew (28:18) "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."

There's thus no reason to think it's true of the Jesuses of Paul, Mark, Luke or John. And it's the third last verse of Matthew, so although I don't know of any commentators who think so, it's not completely impossible that some enthusiastic early copyist slipped it in at the end ─ as appears to have happened at the end of Mark (adding 16:9-20).


God still sustains all of creation. Jesus has been given absolute authority over what is sustained in creation. Authority has been given but that authority must still be sustained.
A feeble attempt to explain with example would be like a Judge has authority to hand down punishment or reward in our society. However that authority would me meaningless without some power beyond the judge which sustains such authority. Imagine a Judge handing down a punishment to a criminal and the criminal just saying "I don't think so and walking away." Without some form of enforceable authority that's exactly what would happen.
The devils in the details but that's the gist of the thing.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
Yes, checking my sources, I'll need to reword my previous reply. What's clear in the NT is that while Jesus identifies with the Son of man (a title for a human in the Tanakh except twice in Daniel where it stands for God's agent, as here) but repeatedly using the phrase instead of "I" in particular contexts ─ which seemed to me to imply that he wasn't the Son of Man on this trip, and would only be so when he returned as God's viceroy. It's such a constant it seems to imply something, but I can't maintain the case for my previous statement. I notice the NT Greek is τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου, which actually translates as "the son of the man" which sounds odd.

The Enoch part is from Ehrman's How Jesus Became God (2014) which says (p. 68) ─

In an interesting and compelling study, Alan Segal, a scholar of ancient Judaism, argues that early rabbis were particularly concerned about a notion, which was evidently widespread in parts of Judaism, that along with God in heaven there was a second power on the divine throne. Following these Jewish sources, Segal refers to these two—God and the other—as the "two powers in heaven."14 The Son of Man figure whom we have just examined would be one such divine figure, as he shares the status and power of God. But there evidently were others who were candidates for this celestial honor, and the rabbis who were concerned about regulating what Jews should think and believe found such views unnerving, so much so that they went on the attack against them. Their attacks were effective, more or less silencing those who ascribed to these views.​
Segal's careful analysis shows that those who held to the "heretical" notion of two powers maintained that the second power was either some kind of angel or a mystical manifestation of a divine characteristic thought to be in some sense equal with God (discussed more below). They subscribed to this notion because of their interpretations of certain passages in the Bible, such as those that describe the Angel of the Lord as bearing the divine name himself, or Daniel 7 and its reference to "the one like a son of man"—a figure independent of God who is given eternal power and dominion. Yet other passages could lead to a "two-powers" doctrine, such as Genesis 1:26, in which God, in creating humans, says, "Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness." Why is God speaking in the plural: "us" and "our"? According to the two-powers heresy, it was because another divine figure was with him. This also could be the person that the "elders bf Israel" saw sitting on the divine throne in Exodus 24:9-10. This figure is called the God of Israel, but the people actually saw him. Elsewhere, even within the book of Exodus, it is explicitly stated that no one can see God and live (Exod. 33:20). Yet they did see God and they did live. They must, then, have seen the second power, not God.​
The rabbis of the second, third, fourth, and following centuries CE condemned any such notion as a heresy. But, again, the fact that they condemned it shows that it was a view held by other Jews, and since the rabbis condemned it so thoroughly, it was probably held by a large number of Jews. Segal argues that this heresy can be traced back to the first Christian century and to Palestine itself. He maintains that one obvious target for such views were the Christians, who elevated Christ—as we will see—to the level of God. But it wasn't only Christians who held to the two-powers heresy. Non-Christian Jews did as well, on the basis of their interpretation of passages from the Hebrew Bible.​


The claim is only found in Matthew (28:18) "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."

There's thus no reason to think it's true of the Jesuses of Paul, Mark, Luke or John. And it's the third last verse of Matthew, so although I don't know of any commentators who think so, it's not completely impossible that some enthusiastic early copyist slipped it in at the end ─ as appears to have happened at the end of Mark (adding 16:9-20).
I think Jesus chose "Son of Man" as his title as the concept from the Book of Enoch best represented who he was. Jesus didn't choose Messiah because he wasn't the Jewish Messiah, however he realized that his followers wouldn't see him in any other way except the long anticipated "deliverer". So, he allowed his apostles to believe what they needed to believe. Interestingly Jesus was very cryptic and vague about his true identity.
 

setarcos

The hopeful or the hopeless?
The will of God in the heart of the believer is God ruling in his kingdom. The Israelites confused it for a material kingdom.
Yes....the kingdom of God is more than the physical. But scripture says there shall be a new heaven AND a new earth over which Jesus shall rule with absolute authority. Earth is a physical place. Jesus never left spiritually. But he has not come into absolute rule over his kingdom yet. Else we wouldn't be waiting for his return as scripture indicates. When Christ returns it will include physicality so that he may from that point on eternally rule over all of reality with absolute authority. Not just the spiritual realms.
 
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