What countries speak Mandarin?

[Kirran]

What do you mean by 'dialect' because from what I know, Cantonese is completely different to Mandarin and Mandarin speakers don't understand the songs. I always thought a 'dialect' means accents and certain words but are still mutually intelligible. Apparently Japan has 16 dialects.

Is Hokkein a completely different language or a dialect? Originally I thought in China they only speak Mandarin and Cantonese. I didn't know about Uiyghur or Tibet having their own languages or these other languages.

Yeah, that's a good definition of a dialect.

Cantonese is not a dialect of "Chinese", it is a dialect of the Chinese language known as Yue. Just as Beijing dialect and Standard Chinese are dialects of the language called Mandarin. This is in linguistic terms - politically, they are all the Chinese language.

This is with exceptions of languages which do not belong to that family, do not descend from Classical Chinese and its relatives, such as the Uyghur language and the several Tibetan languages, as you rightly raise.

What % of Chinese, Hong Kongers, Taiwanese, Singaporeans, Malaysians speak Mandarin? Why do the third and fourth generation Chinese Singaporeans and Malaysians feel the need to learn it when English and Malay are the national languages?

Easily 70% of Chinese speak Mandarin, probably much more. People of Hong Kong and Macao (which are Chinese), probably similar, although they'd be speaking their own languages a lot at home like in much of Southern China, as well as a bit more in the public sphere.

The vast majority of Taiwanese people speak Mandarin, I'd say 90+%.

In Singapore 65% are literate in Mandarin, and 36% speak it at home (that's around 1.2 million, vs. 500 thousand who speak other Chinese languages).

In Malaysia around 20% can speak it, possibly quite a bit higher as its prominent in education. It is spoken in its Standard Chinese form as well as in the Malaysian dialect. In different areas, the local dominant Chinese language may be Hokkien or Cantonese, but increasingly Mandarin is strengthening its dominant position, although it is more common to speak Hokkien, Hakka, Teochew or Cantonese as the home language for now. A friend of mine from KL is ethnic Hakka but speaks Mandarin far better than Hakka.

Why do ethnic Chinese people in Singapore in Malaysia speak Mandarin or other Chinese languages? Because that's what they grow up speaking, and that's what their communities speak, for the most part. There isn't integration into some overarching national identity in these countries in the same way as in the West. The dominant ethnicity in Malaysia are the Malays, and the government recognises all those who convert to Islam, adopt Malay culture and speak Malay as being Malays. This is as assimilationist tactic. The Chinese Malaysians, as well as the Indian Malaysians, are quite separate - there are largely different political parties that represent different ethnic groups. So while in the UK we have the Conservative Party, the Labour Party etc, in Malaysia they have the Malay Conservative Party, the Chinese Conservative Party, the Indian Conservative Party, the Malay Labour Party... To put it roughly.

As the Chinese Malaysian identity remains very strong, then naturally that is associated with maintaining fluency in a Chinese language. It's like asking why Navajo people in the USA, or Tibetan people in China, or Quebecois people in Canada, bother to learn their respective languages.

 

[ronki23]

Yeah, that's a good definition of a dialect.

Cantonese is not a dialect of "Chinese", it is a dialect of the Chinese language known as Yue. Just as Beijing dialect and Standard Chinese are dialects of the language called Mandarin. This is in linguistic terms - politically, they are all the Chinese language.

This is with exceptions of languages which do not belong to that family, do not descend from Classical Chinese and its relatives, such as the Uyghur language and the several Tibetan languages, as you rightly raise.



Easily 70% of Chinese speak Mandarin, probably much more. People of Hong Kong and Macao (which are Chinese), probably similar, although they'd be speaking their own languages a lot at home like in much of Southern China, as well as a bit more in the public sphere.

The vast majority of Taiwanese people speak Mandarin, I'd say 90+%.

In Singapore 65% are literate in Mandarin, and 36% speak it at home (that's around 1.2 million, vs. 500 thousand who speak other Chinese languages).

In Malaysia around 20% can speak it, possibly quite a bit higher as its prominent in education. It is spoken in its Standard Chinese form as well as in the Malaysian dialect. In different areas, the local dominant Chinese language may be Hokkien or Cantonese, but increasingly Mandarin is strengthening its dominant position, although it is more common to speak Hokkien, Hakka, Teochew or Cantonese as the home language for now. A friend of mine from KL is ethnic Hakka but speaks Mandarin far better than Hakka.

Why do ethnic Chinese people in Singapore in Malaysia speak Mandarin or other Chinese languages? Because that's what they grow up speaking, and that's what their communities speak, for the most part. There isn't integration into some overarching national identity in these countries in the same way as in the West. The dominant ethnicity in Malaysia are the Malays, and the government recognises all those who convert to Islam, adopt Malay culture and speak Malay as being Malays. This is as assimilationist tactic. The Chinese Malaysians, as well as the Indian Malaysians, are quite separate - there are largely different political parties that represent different ethnic groups. So while in the UK we have the Conservative Party, the Labour Party etc, in Malaysia they have the Malay Conservative Party, the Chinese Conservative Party, the Indian Conservative Party, the Malay Labour Party... To put it roughly.

As the Chinese Malaysian identity remains very strong, then naturally that is associated with maintaining fluency in a Chinese language. It's like asking why Navajo people in the USA, or Tibetan people in China, or Quebecois people in Canada, bother to learn their respective languages.

So what are the languages of China then? Because 4 -5 years ago in my dissertation I said Chinese only spoke either Mandarin or Cantonese? Is Mandarin enforced nationwide?

More importantly, how difficult would it be to learn Mandarin and Japanese at the same time? Or Mandarin and Spanish? I like learning languages but hated learning French- I'm not going to work in France or an African country and Canadians speak English!!!

Also, is Hindi spoken in South India or outside the Hindi 'belt' because Punjab, Maharastra and Gujarat are not in the belt. I speak Gujarati but refuse to learn Hindi because Indians at University refused to be my friends / did not associate with me for not speaking Hindi. If it's spoken by 300 million + how can it be a national language ?

If English is taught nationwide in India, and it's being implemented in China, is there a need to learn Mandarin?

 

[Wu Wei]

So what are the languages of China then? Because 4 -5 years ago in my dissertation I said Chinese only spoke either Mandarin or Cantonese? Is Mandarin enforced nationwide?

More importantly, how difficult would it be to learn Mandarin and Japanese at the same time? Or Mandarin and Spanish? I like learning languages but hated learning French- I'm not going to work in France or an African country and Canadians speak English!!!

Also, is Hindi spoken in South India or outside the Hindi 'belt' because Punjab, Maharastra and Gujarat are not in the belt. I speak Gujarati but refuse to learn Hindi because Indians at University refused to be my friends / did not associate with me for not speaking Hindi. If it's spoken by 300 million + how can it be a national language ?

If English is taught nationwide in India, and it's being implemented in China, is there a need to learn Mandarin?

Oh heavens no, there are much more than 2 Chinese dialects. One should think of the Chinese language more like a family of languages made up of multiple dialects, many of which cannot talk to each other, some can, some almost can. However if you are talking Fujian, all bets are off, pretty much no one other than a Fujian speaker can understand a Fujian speaker. However they all share the same writing system,it is just some dialects need to know more characters than others

here is a list

Mandarin and Japanese are from different roots. Japanese has more similarity with Korean and Mongolian than Mandarin. As for how hard, well I imagine that would depend on the learner. I once tried to learn Cantonese and Mandarin at the same time and in the end I only knew one person that could understand me, and that was a friend from Guangzhou who spoke both Cantonese and Mandarin.

As for English being taught in China, yes it is, but that does not mean they all speak it. My in-laws there all learned English in school, but only one can actually speak it and that has more to do with going to live in Singapore for several years than anything else. It is the same as my learning Spanish in high school and German in college. Yeah I took the classes but I can't speak a word of it if your talking conversationally.

However the PRC requires that everyone learn Mandarin and for the most part many in China speak their own dialect and Mandarin. But English is far from prevalent

 

[Kirran]

So what are the languages of China then? Because 4 -5 years ago in my dissertation I said Chinese only spoke either Mandarin or Cantonese? Is Mandarin enforced nationwide?

A majority of Chinese speak Mandarin. Cantonese is a dialect of Yue, which is the third-most-spoken language. Wu, of which Shanghainese is a dialect, is second. There are a number of other languages in the same family, descended from Classical Chinese and written using the same characters, that are referred to collectively as 'Chinese'. These included Min Nan etc. There are other languages that are recognised as distinct by the government, including Tibetan languages, Uyghur, Korean, Mongolian, Zhuang etc.

Mandarin is quite variable, like English is. Standard Chinese, the form of Mandarin which is official, is not exactly enforced - it is enforced in the same way English is enforced in the USA, you know?

More importantly, how difficult would it be to learn Mandarin and Japanese at the same time? Or Mandarin and Spanish? I like learning languages but hated learning French- I'm not going to work in France or an African country and Canadians speak English!!!

I'd advise one at a time friend. Mandarin and Japanese together have the advantage of the Chinese writing system being one of those used in Japanese (although it will not suffice alone). Mandarin will be much easier than Japanese, although still difficult. The difficulties in Mandarin lie in the tones and in the writing system. Chinese children often do not learn to read fully until they are 12 or so.

As for learning Mandarin and Spanish concurrently, I'd advise against it. I admire your enthusiasm but really, just session Spanish and then Mandarin.

I personally speak Spanish and have done some basic learning of Mandarin, and have some familiarity with the way Mandarin and Japanese languages work.

Also, is Hindi spoken in South India or outside the Hindi 'belt' because Punjab, Maharastra and Gujarat are not in the belt. I speak Gujarati but refuse to learn Hindi because Indians at University refused to be my friends / did not associate with me for not speaking Hindi. If it's spoken by 300 million + how can it be a national language ?

Hindi (better referred to as Hindustani to include Urdu and exclude stuff like Marwari and Bhojpuri) is not spoken outside the Hindi belt, you're right. A fair proportion of people outside this area will be able to speak it, I have friends from Karnataka and Kerala who can speak Hindi, and it's a strong language in Mumbai, but generally speaking no. That is not to say you should not learn it, I would very much advise you to learn it if you have an interest in doing so. It'll be a lot easier for you as a Gujarati-speaker.

I speak it at a basic level myself, having spent some time in Uttar Pradesh.

It's one of two official languages (the other being English) but is not a national language. India doesn't have one.

Hindi is also one of the 22 languages on the Eighth Schedule of India.

If English is taught nationwide in India, and it's being implemented in China, is there a need to learn Mandarin?

A need? No, there isn't. But Mandarin would be useful if you want to live and work in China or in areas with significant Chinese populations. Also, learning a language and experiencing a new culture and mindset is an enriching process.

As Wu Wei said, English isn't exactly as widespread in China as you may think. Widely learnt, but not that widely spoken and understood. Much less than in India, and in India it's much less widespread than TV etc would have you believe anyway.

My recommendation is to pick one language and really dedicate yourself to that, at least until you are at an advanced level, before looking at something else.

Hope this helps you.

 

[ronki23]

A majority of Chinese speak Mandarin. Cantonese is a dialect of Yue, which is the third-most-spoken language. Wu, of which Shanghainese is a dialect, is second. There are a number of other languages in the same family, descended from Classical Chinese and written using the same characters, that are referred to collectively as 'Chinese'. These included Min Nan etc. There are other languages that are recognised as distinct by the government, including Tibetan languages, Uyghur, Korean, Mongolian, Zhuang etc.

Mandarin is quite variable, like English is. Standard Chinese, the form of Mandarin which is official, is not exactly enforced - it is enforced in the same way English is enforced in the USA, you know?



I'd advise one at a time friend. Mandarin and Japanese together have the advantage of the Chinese writing system being one of those used in Japanese (although it will not suffice alone). Mandarin will be much easier than Japanese, although still difficult. The difficulties in Mandarin lie in the tones and in the writing system. Chinese children often do not learn to read fully until they are 12 or so.

As for learning Mandarin and Spanish concurrently, I'd advise against it. I admire your enthusiasm but really, just session Spanish and then Mandarin.

I personally speak Spanish and have done some basic learning of Mandarin, and have some familiarity with the way Mandarin and Japanese languages work.



Hindi (better referred to as Hindustani to include Urdu and exclude stuff like Marwari and Bhojpuri) is not spoken outside the Hindi belt, you're right. A fair proportion of people outside this area will be able to speak it, I have friends from Karnataka and Kerala who can speak Hindi, and it's a strong language in Mumbai, but generally speaking no. That is not to say you should not learn it, I would very much advise you to learn it if you have an interest in doing so. It'll be a lot easier for you as a Gujarati-speaker.

I speak it at a basic level myself, having spent some time in Uttar Pradesh.

It's one of two official languages (the other being English) but is not a national language. India doesn't have one.

Hindi is also one of the 22 languages on the Eighth Schedule of India.



A need? No, there isn't. But Mandarin would be useful if you want to live and work in China or in areas with significant Chinese populations. Also, learning a language and experiencing a new culture and mindset is an enriching process.

As Wu Wei said, English isn't exactly as widespread in China as you may think. Widely learnt, but not that widely spoken and understood. Much less than in India, and in India it's much less widespread than TV etc would have you believe anyway.

My recommendation is to pick one language and really dedicate yourself to that, at least until you are at an advanced level, before looking at something else.

Hope this helps you.

But regarding Hindi, if English isn't that widespread why isn't Hindi as important to learn as Mandarin?
And my parents are Gujarati and nearly all the Gujaratis in my family speak Hindi. Even when I went to Mumbai, Nasik and Pune the signs were Hindi and English even though Maharastra is less than 15% Hindi speaking. Most Punjabis I know also speak Hindi. Yet Gujarat, Maharastra and Punjab are not in the Hindi belt. So why define a belt?

I'm assuming from your name and experience in Far Eastern languages you're Singaporean or Malaysian Indian

 

[Kirran]

But regarding Hindi, if English isn't that widespread why isn't Hindi as important to learn as Mandarin?
And my parents are Gujarati and nearly all the Gujaratis in my family speak Hindi. Even when I went to Mumbai, Nasik and Pune the signs were Hindi and English even though Maharastra is less than 15% Hindi speaking. Most Punjabis I know also speak Hindi. Yet Gujarat, Maharastra and Punjab are not in the Hindi belt. So why define a belt?

I'm assuming from your name and experience in Far Eastern languages you're Singaporean or Malaysian Indian

Well you have to know Hindi if you're in a Hindi-speaking area, and you might learn it otherwise for usefulness. In the north it's general practice to learn it. But much less so in Tamil Nadu, Kerala, Manipur...

The Hindi belt is where Hindi languages are natively spoken. This distinguishes it from somewhere like Gujarat where it is widely known as a second language, but not natively. Mumbai is Mumbai man.