1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured What a bad translation

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Scrooge, Oct 24, 2017.

  1. Nakosis

    Nakosis Time Efficient Lollygagger
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2011
    Messages:
    22,045
    Ratings:
    +11,836
    Religion:
    Scientism
    It wasn't subjective for most of those Christians either. For a few of them, subjectivity was quite alright.
     
  2. Scrooge

    Scrooge certainty seeking

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2017
    Messages:
    47
    Ratings:
    +7
    Religion:
    Christian
    Romans 1:17 is quoting (copying out of) Habakkuk 2:4 my friend. Romans 10:6-8 is a quote from Deut. 30:11-14.



    For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

    (Rom 1:17 KJV)


    Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

    (Hab 2:4 KJV)


    I appreciate you bringing my attention to Habakkuk 2:4. In all this I noticed a difference between the two verses. I emphasized this difference in red. The KJV and many others have "his" in their translations of Hab. 2:4. Which would refer to the "just". In this case the "just" would be to those to which Habakkuk through GOD is speaking to. However Paul did not translate it the same.

    I did find two translations that translated the verse differently. These translations are translated from the Greek Septuagint which was translated from the Hebrew manuscripts prior to Jesus' birth. Here they are. The first one is the Apostolic Bible Polyglot, and the second one is the Brenton’s translation.


    If he keeps back, [2 favors not 1 my soul] in him; but the just one [2 by 3 My belief 1 shall live].

    (Hab 2:4 ABP)


    If he should draw back, my soul has no pleasure in him: but the just shall live by My faith.

    (Hab 2:4 Brenton)


    Here we find a major difference again. This time Habakkuk uses the word "my". My refers to the speaker. In this case that speaker would be GOD because Habakkuk is a Prophet speaking in HIS behave.

    So as you can see we have three different translation of one text. They are Paul's, the Greek Septuagint and the English translations of the Hebrew text. So which is correct?

    Before we get to ahead of ourselves let's take a look at the Hebrew; the Masoretic Text.

    בֶּאֱמוּנָת֥וֹ is the Hebrew word that is translated "his faith" in the English translation or "my faith" in the Greek Septuagint. It is a compound word derived from אמוּנה . The difference between the two is the added letters and וֹ and בֶּ. From what I gather they are what denote “in” and “Him” (My) respectively in Hab. 2:4. So what we have is in “faith (truth) of him”. This compound word is only located one other place in the Holy Writ. And that is Psalms 96:13. It is of no help but here it is.



    Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.

    (Psa 96:13 KJV)


    So for me the question arises were the Hebrew scholars who penned the Septuagint justified when they translated Habakkuk 2:4 “…. my soul has no pleasure in him: but the just shall live by My faith.” For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith (HIS faith) to faith (our faith): as it is written, the just shall live by faith.

    (Hab 2:4 Brenton; Rom 1:17 KJV)



    Sure they do.



    But the righteousness of faith says this: "Do not say in your heart, Who will go up into Heaven?" (that is, to bring down Christ); or, "Who will go down into the abyss?" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we proclaim)

    (Rom 10:6-8 LITV-TSP)

    It is not in the heavens that you should say, Who shall go up into the heavens for us, and bring it to us, and cause us to hear it, that we may do it? And it is not beyond the sea that you should say, Who shall cross over for us to the region beyond the sea and take it for us, and cause us to hear it, that we may do it? For the word is very near to you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.

    (Deu 30:12-14 LITV-TSP)
     
  3. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2012
    Messages:
    36,551
    Ratings:
    +16,716
    Religion:
    liber-scripta grim Christian
    That is right.

    Yes thanks for correcting that mis-reference. I sometimes don't know why anybody puts up with me. One time I even said 'Noah' when I meant 'Moses'. Somebody should put me into Bible prison!

    I think the context helps. If I scan forward I encounter this "(NIV) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism." (Rome 2:7-2:11) It actually makes sense that people have to live a certain way.

    The Septuagint for me has one modern purpose which is as a witness that the Masoretic text is ancient, but it cannot guarantee that no spellings have changed or that there are no alterations. I cannot read the Septuagint personally without learning another language. Together with the Dead Sea Scrolls and Jewish fastidiousness it is pretty strong evidence of very ancient writing, and these days it matters with all of the conspiracy theories we hear. I think it is relevant sometimes, but in this case where the question is whether Christians are required to live righteously -- of course we are. Is Habakkuk any different and are Jews righteous without living righteously? Impossible, because they are cut off if they do not. How can Abraham's descendants be a blessing if they only live as violent animals? They cannot of course, so they do not and this passage in Habakkuk 2:4 must be about living faithfully.
     
Loading...