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What’s up with God? Is He really sending us tests?

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
I have been fortunate in some ways, and unfortunate in others. My childhood was no picnic as i was always very shy so I never fit on at school and I was bullied when I got to junior high. But the worst of it was that I had no caring parents to come home to because they were emotionally unavailable since they had their own emotional problems.
I can recognize that this would have been tough for me. I may very well have developed a much more pessimistic view of life, or turned to something else to try and soothe any emotional turmoil I would have faced alone. What that might have been, who knows? Interesting to think how much those experiences during earlier times shape your adult self.

I have never had a 'bad' relationship as I won't tolerate abuse and I was never attracted to abusive people.
I wish there were more in this camp!

I have always been an introvert and although I fare okay in social situations I find most group activities rather boring.
I can definitely relate to this. I remember one particular moment keenly. I was with a group of people from work out at a line-dancing bar. Many of them were itching to get drinks and get out on the dance floor... and I couldn't think of anything less appealing - and it must have shown on my face, because one particularly nice woman I worked with got a look on her own face in reaction to me that seemed to ask, in all sincerity "Is there something wrong with this?" I hadn't said a word! But I basically had no choice but to feel terrible - but it was only that I would much rather have an engaging conversation in a place where I can actually hear myself think, and I truly had nothing against the fact that they enjoyed themselves dancing, listening to whatever type of music, etc.

You might 'feel' antagonistic but you do not come across that way because you are very honest yet respectful of other people even if you do not agree with them. I would much talk to people who are direct as opposed to people who don't come right out ans say what is on their mind because I don't feel I can trust those people. What I do not do well with is sarcasm and people who are overly critical of the same things in a repeated fashion. Life is too short to deal with people who cannot be polite and respectful.
I try to be honest and direct - not sure I always make the mark, but thank you for the kind words. You too are very honest about your ideas and feelings and also direct. I tend to prize those things in conversation as well.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
My answer is the same. All suffering is not caused by evil. The proof of that is that many people who are not evil or touched by evil still suffer due to other causes. Thus the Christian explanation is too simplistic.

Why do you think we are without God and His protection?

I think the reason is that people rejected God and wanted to know evil. That is why evil is possible in this lesson world.

And I think evil is like emptiness or darkness, it is really nothing. Evil is the lack of good, it is only possible if good is not around. And I think all suffering is possible only when good is not done.

I think everything is quite simple, and I don’t think simple means it can't be correct. Usually things are simple when person understands the matter and I think it is good, if person understands.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
How many people will go to heaven? What is the significance of the 144,000?...

That is some special group that is defined in the scripture (also Rev. 7:1-8). But the total number is not known, because:

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands.
Rev. 7:9
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I think the reason is that people rejected God and wanted to know evil. That is why evil is possible in this lesson world.
Who are the people who rejected God and thus wanted to know evil?
And I think evil is like emptiness or darkness, it is really nothing. Evil is the lack of good, it is only possible if good is not around. And I think all suffering is possible only when good is not done.
I agree that evil is the lack of good and as such it is nonexistent.
I agree that evil is possible only when good is not done, but I believe there is suffering that is not the result of evil actions or the lack of good actions. If I go out and get in a car accident that was not anyone's fault or if I get caught in a tornado that might cause suffering.
I think everything is quite simple, and I don’t think simple means it can't be correct. Usually things are simple when person understands the matter and I think it is good, if person understands.
I don't believe everything is as simple as you believe it is. There is free will but there is also fate. Humans are responsible for their own choices but God is responsible for our fate because He holds it in His Hands.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I can recognize that this would have been tough for me. I may very well have developed a much more pessimistic view of life, or turned to something else to try and soothe any emotional turmoil I would have faced alone. What that might have been, who knows? Interesting to think how much those experiences during earlier times shape your adult self.
I did try to run away from my feelings for about 12 years but then I went into recovery at the behest of my older sister who was kind of a parent to me growing up and someone I hung around with. First it was psychiatrists, later it was psychologists, counselors and 12 step programs and homeopathic doctors. I am not one to give up once I set my mind to something so I ran the gamut of professionals. My recovery lasted a good 15 years or more and I was not involved in religion or God during those years.
I wish there were more in this camp!
I wouldn’t say I do not allow people to take advantage of me because I do, to a certain extent, like the tenant who now over me upwards of 13,000 and my husband who does not really do his fair share of the work, but I will take care of that tenant in due time and I will tolerate my husband because I don’t like to fight, especially about something that cannot be resolved.
I can definitely relate to this. I remember one particular moment keenly. I was with a group of people from work out at a line-dancing bar. Many of them were itching to get drinks and get out on the dance floor... and I couldn't think of anything less appealing - and it must have shown on my face, because one particularly nice woman I worked with got a look on her own face in reaction to me that seemed to ask, in all sincerity "Is there something wrong with this?" I hadn't said a word! But I basically had no choice but to feel terrible - but it was only that I would much rather have an engaging conversation in a place where I can actually hear myself think, and I truly had nothing against the fact that they enjoyed themselves dancing, listening to whatever type of music, etc.
I have not been to a bar or a dance since I was a teenager and even then I rarely went to a bar because I did not like to drink alcohol and only tried it a couple of times. I did take a lot of street drugs as a hippie though and I was at the Woodstock festival of 1969. About a year and a half after that I headed off for college and got serious about my studies and I never took drugs again, until they were prescribed by the psychiatrist about 12 years later.

As a teenager, I was never comfortable at parties but since I was on drugs I was not fazed by the people. I was okay at Baha’i meetings back when I attended them but I was more comfortable at 12 step meetings because religion has never been my thing. I was always much more interested in psychology.
I try to be honest and direct - not sure I always make the mark, but thank you for the kind words. You too are very honest about your ideas and feelings and also direct. I tend to prize those things in conversation as well.
Thanks, it is always nice to find people to talk to that I can relate to on forums and they are not normally religious people I gravitate towards. I used to post in other forums and started my own forum over six years ago which was pretty active for a while, but I got too busy on other forums after that so I could not maintain my forum. However, I made lots of friends on my forum and the other forums. All my friends were atheists, and although two of my friends became believers over the course of time, they were never religious. They had been Christians growing up and dropped out so they were biased against religion. They were also very direct so it was no holds barred when it came to what they thought of religion and “Messengers of God.” I only have one close friend who is a Baha’i who I met on those forums over eight years ago and now he posts here on RF occasionally. Mind you, I have never met any of these people in person, we communicated on forums and via e-mail. They all live somewhere in the Midwest.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Who are the people who rejected God and thus wanted to know evil?

Adam and Eve. But I think many others wanted also that. Would you not have wanted to know evil?

… If I go out and get in a car accident that was not anyone's fault or if I get caught in a tornado that might cause suffering…

If such thing happens, it is because God has let people to be without Him and His protection. When people are without God’s protection, it is possible that such things happen. And that people can be without God’s protection is the result of Adam and Eve’s choice.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Adam and Eve. But I think many others wanted also that. Would you not have wanted to know evil?
I do not believe that there was ever an Adam and Eve. i believe that was a story with allegorical meanings:

I do not believe that Adam and Eve were real people who existed; I believe the story in the Bible was an allegorical story with spiritual meanings.

This is how I believe the descendants of Adam inherited the sins of Adam:

“For the spirit and the soul of Adam, when they were attached to the human world, passed from the world of freedom into the world of bondage, and His descendants continued in bondage. This attachment of the soul and spirit to the human world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam, and is the serpent which is always in the midst of, and at enmity with, the spirits and the descendants of Adam. That enmity continues and endures. For attachment to the world has become the cause of the bondage of spirits, and this bondage is identical with sin, which has been transmitted from Adam to His posterity. It is because of this attachment that men have been deprived of essential spirituality and exalted position.”
Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, pp. 124-125

The following is what I believe the story of Adam and Eve means and how Jesus freed us from sin.

“Adam is the spirit of Adam, and Eve is His soul; the tree is the human world, and the serpent is that attachment to this world which constitutes sin, and which has infected the descendants of Adam. Christ by His holy breezes saved men from this attachment and freed them from this sin. The sin in Adam is relative to His position. Although from this attachment there proceed results, nevertheless, attachment to the earthly world, in relation to attachment to the spiritual world, is considered as a sin. The good deeds of the righteous are the sins of the Near Ones. This is established. So bodily power is not only defective in relation to spiritual power; it is weakness in comparison. In the same way, physical life, in comparison with eternal life in the Kingdom, is considered as death. So Christ called the physical life death, and said: “Let the dead bury their dead.” 8 Though those souls possessed physical life, yet in His eyes that life was death.

This is one of the meanings of the biblical story of Adam. Reflect until you discover the others.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 126

You can read the whole chapter on this link: 30: ADAM AND EVE

So the evil you speak of is attachment to the world which has become the cause of the bondage of spirits, and this bondage is identical with sin, which has been transmitted from Adam to His posterity.

Humans had to know evil so that they would be able to know good. Humans had to know attachment to this world so they could know detachment. Humans had to be able to make free choices.
If such thing happens, it is because God has let people to be without Him and His protection. When people are without God’s protection, it is possible that such things happen. And that people can be without God’s protection is the result of Adam and Eve’s choice.
But if Jesus atoned for the sins of all who believe in Him that would mean that all those people would be protected, so nothing bad would ever happen to them. But we know that is nit the case because had thungs happen to Christians.

I cannot believe that all people were punished because of the choice of Adam and Eve. I do not even believe there were such people, but even if there were, God would not be just if He punished everyone for the sins of two people.

“Observe that if, according to the suppositions of the People of the Book, 7 the meaning were taken in its exoteric sense, it would be absolute injustice and complete predestination. If Adam sinned by going near the forbidden tree, what was the sin of the glorious Abraham, and what was the error of Moses the Interlocutor? What was the crime of Noah the Prophet? What was the transgression of Joseph the Truthful? What was the iniquity of the Prophets of God, and what was the trespass of John the Chaste? Would the justice of God have allowed these enlightened Manifestations, on account of the sin of Adam, to find torment in hell until Christ came and by the sacrifice of Himself saved them from excruciating tortures? Such idea is beyond every law and rule and cannot be accepted by any intelligent person.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 125-126
 

1213

Well-Known Member
...Humans had to know evil so that they would be able to know good....

Sorry, I don’t think that is true.

...But if Jesus atoned for the sins of all who believe in Him that would mean that all those people would be protected, so nothing bad would ever happen to them. ..

And I believe their soul is in safe and can’t be destroyed or harmed. But, I don’t think it means their body can’t be harmed or killed. This “life” is not meant to last forever.

...I cannot believe that all people were punished because of the choice of Adam and Eve. ...

So, do you think this life is a punishment?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Sorry, I don’t think that is true.
I stated that rather awkwardly but what I was trying to say is that if we did not have anything to compare evil to we would not know what was good. So, why is it that you think that humans needed or wanted to know evil?
And I believe their soul is in safe and can’t be destroyed or harmed. But, I don’t think it means their body can’t be harmed or killed. This “life” is not meant to last forever.
I fully agree with that. Their soul is safe so what happens to the body is of minor importance because this earthly life is not forever. It is only a very small part of our total existence which goes on for all eternity.
So, do you think this life is a punishment?
No I do not believe that. I believe we were placed here by God so our soul could come to know and love God and so we could acquire the spiritual qualities that we will need in the next life (in heaven).
 

1213

Well-Known Member
I stated that rather awkwardly but what I was trying to say is that if we did not have anything to compare evil to we would not know what was good. So, why is it that you think that humans needed or wanted to know evil?
...

I don’t know more than what the Bible tells about that. But, clearly Eve had some idea of good, because this happened:

When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit of it, and ate; and she gave some to her husband with her, and he ate.
Gen. 3:6
 
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