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Was Jesus Really Crucified

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
On resurrection

The earliest attested form of the belief in Jesus' resurrection occurs in 1 Corinthians 15,.....
If you actually read the account, it does not state that it is a spiritual resurrection. There is a transformation, but the physical body is turned into a spiritual body, which is explained as imperishable. What we are told though is that it is still the same physical body that is transformed. There is no suggestion that it is a spiritual resurrection.
Jesus was placed on the cross and did not die;...
We are told that he died. It is very clear. You seem to be ignoring that the Bible clearly states that Jesus died on the cross.

There is no evidence that he was drugged to appear dead. We are told that he was dead. More so, breaking the legs was not a requirement. The one remains of a crucifixion victim we do have did not have his legs broken. So no, the legs not being broken do not signify anything.

Also, there is no suggestion that Jesus was executed on false charges. More so, it was the Romans who charged him and executed him. You have to remember that. Jesus was guilty under Roman law. There was no false charges, he was guilty.

As for the body having to be removed, the Romans would not have cared. They crucified Jesus on Passover, a holy day for the Jews. They wouldn't care about the Passover, and for the Jews, Jesus was already cursed. More so, again, it was Passover, a holy day. Removing him for the Sabbath would have done nothing.
Yet Paul never mentions Jesus having been resurrected in the flesh. He never mentions empty tombs, physical appearances, or the ascension of Jesus into heaven afterward (i.e. when Paul mentions the ascension, he never ties it to appearances in this way, and never distinguishes it from the resurrection event itself)
Paul does mention a physical resurrection. If you understood what the first century Jewish idea of resurrection was, or even what Paul was stating, you would see that in fact, he believed in a physical resurrection. He just believed that the physical body was transformed to a spiritual body. However, it was the same body .

There are many historical errors in Jesus’ trial and crucifixion
Never said there wasn't.
When Jesus expired after drinking the vinegar, the Pilate gave permission to Joseph to remove the body and wrap in healing spices.
There is no suggestion of this. You have to try better. More so, Pilate would never have condoned this.
Interestingly, there is also the possibility that Pilate was bribed. This would account for the crucifiction taking place at the Garden of Gethsemane (private land), and for the body being taken down so quickly. In short the evidence is overwhelming that the Cruci- fixion was instead a
Cruci- fiction
We are told that the Crucifixion took place at the Place of the Skull, Golgotha. That was where people were crucified. It wasn't private land. There is no reason to believe that Pilate was bribed. Knowing a little background on Pilate would show that to be a ridiculous idea.
Another explanation is provided by a strong tradition that Pilate was “got at” with a sizable bribe amounting to the equivalent of 30,000. If what is described in the Gospels is true, then it is obvious that Pilate did have a vested interest in the drama enacted that day in Jerusalem…Finally, there is another significant fact. In the calendars of the Saints of the Coptic Church, both in Egypt and in Ethiopia, Pilate and his wife appear as “saints”. This could be possible only if we accept that Pilate, knowing full well that his soldiers had made a wrong arrest, knowingly condemned Judas in place of Jesus, and allowed the latter to escape.
There is no suggestion of this in the Bible. The Coptic Church using Pilate's wife as a Saint only shows that they read the Biblical account. So it is not significant at all. You are assuming way to much, and really, it is a baseless claim. There is no evidence to suggest what you are saying.
Apparently, the women knew Jesus was alive, that’s why they prepared spices to anoint Jesus’ body.
Maybe you should brush up on your knowledge of Jewish burial practices. There is nothing odd here at all.
No one knows the exact date on which the crucifixion occurred....
Actually, the Last Supper was the Passover feast. There is no reason to doubt that. It makes sense that they would eat the Passover feast. That is why they went to Jerusalem in the first place, for the Passover.

More so, it is logical as to why he would have been crucified during that time as well. He committed a crime in the eyes of Romans, during a time that was readily available for revolt. So the Romans squashed an insurrectionist. Really nothing surprising at all.
Jesus survived the cross so Christians are not saved....
Why should they accept the Quran version? It was not done by anyone remotely related to the event. It has little credibility here. There is no reason we should take it seriously in this account.

More so, the Bible states that Jesus was resurrected. That he died. There is no evidence otherwise because we are told flat out what supposedly happened.
But it doesn’t matter who moved the stone, the crucifixion was a conspiracy to keep Jesus alive. The Essenes were the followers of Jesus:
You should do a little more research. There is little evidence that the Essenes were the followers of Jesus. The conspiracy that you are talking about was actually debunked nearly two centuries ago now. It wasn't taken very seriously then, it shouldn't be taken seriously now. The reason being that it ignores what critical scholars know about the subject. More so, there is little reason to believe that Jesus was an Essene. Maybe he studied with them at sometime; however, he is very different from them.
Let us expose the undeniable facts:
Only if you turn a blind eye to what critical scholarship has uncovered in the last century.
1. The Roman soldiers were bribed.
Because Matthew suggests it? Not very good evidence. Especially considering what would have happened if those soldiers were caught; severe punishment. More so the account is not mentioned anywhere else.
2. The body of Jesus was stolen.
Possible, but there is little evidence for that. Not an undeniable fact, just one of the many possibilities.
3. The story of the empty tomb is mythical
Illogical at best. If you claim that the body of Jesus was stolen, there would have been an empty tomb.
4. The resurrection of Jesus was symbolic
There is no suggestion of this at all. We are told that it was meant to be literal.
5. Paul contradicts the Gospels
The Gospels contradict themselves even; big deal.
6. There are no crucifixion prophecies in the Old Testament
Again, big deal.
7.The crucifixion took place on private ground, and the witnesses were far away.
Incorrect, we are told it happened at Golgotha, the Place of the Skull. Plus, there were witnesses to it. You have to realize that the authors of the Gospels were not actually Jesus's disciples.
There is also the consistent agreement of modern scholars that the Crucifiction was more likely held at the Garden of Gethsemane...
Grossly incorrect. Most scholars agree that the crucifixion occurred at Golgotha. The leaders on the subject agree to that. Very few would actually disagree.
8.Jesus was drugged to keep him alive; he fell unconscious before the Roman soldiers could break his legs.
No evidence at all. More so, breaking the legs was not required. You need to do some more research. It also has to be remembered that John is the most theological of all of the Gospels.
9.The Pilate knew it takes several days to die from crucifixion. Jesus merely expired in three hours! or six hours according to you
According to Mark it was six hours. If you did any research, you would know this. More so, it doesn't always take several days. Death by crucifixion could be quite quick depending on the health of the person, as well as the severity of the flogging.
Josephus tells a story of the Romans crucifying people along the walls of Jerusalem. He also says that the Roman soldiers would amuse themselves by crucifying criminals in different positions. In Roman-style crucifixion, the victim took days to die slowly from suffocation — caused by the victim's blood-supply slowly draining away, to a quantity insufficient to supply the required oxygen to vital organs. The dead body was left up for vultures and other birds to consume.
We have the remains of one victim who in fact was buried afterwards. So it is possible that Jesus was buried. More so, cause of death was thought to be asphyxiation, but modern studies are suggesting differently. You should do some more research on modern scholarship, not conspiracy theories.
Here are excerpts from Richard Carrier’s article Why I Don’t Buy the Resurrection Story on the guards at the tomb.
Why I Don't Buy the Resurrection Story: Probability of Survival vs. Miracle - Assessing the Odds
And he has authority how? He has been debunked quite thoroughly a quite a few times now. He has no authority on the subject, and has little experience on the authority.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
i mentioned it earlier all three of them were brought down earlier , after 3 or 6 hours although it takes several days to die from crucifixion
Actually, crucifixion could occur in a short time if the flogging was quite bad. We know of cases that people were even killed by Roman flogging. More so, we can tell that the flogging of Jesus was most likely severe as he was not even able to bear his cross. So it may not have been common, but death could happen within 6 hours.

like i said before In Roman-style crucifixion, the victim took days to die slowly from suffocation ,so this proves nothing
Like I said, you need to do more research. First, it was not death by suffocation. Second, modern scholarship has done further study and found that death could occur for several different reasons.
 

Islam432

Practicing Muslim
Actually, crucifixion could occur in a short time if the flogging was quite bad. We know of cases that people were even killed by Roman flogging. More so, we can tell that the flogging of Jesus was most likely severe as he was not even able to bear his cross. So it may not have been common, but death could happen within 6 hours.

Like I said, you need to do more research. First, it was not death by suffocation. Second, modern scholarship has done further study and found that death could occur for several different reasons.

so all of this is your assumption in short
 

Bowman

Active Member
And we've seen that you think you can read Arabic, yet really have no idea what it truly means.


How is it that the authors of the Koran plainly state that Jesus was crucified here...?

يخرج من بين الصلب والترائب
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
How is it that the authors of the Koran plainly state that Jesus was crucified here...?

يخرج من بين الصلب والترائب
How is it that from the earliest Islamic records, the idea that Jesus did not die by crucifixion has existed? Are you aware of the fact that many Muslims believe that Jesus was crucified, but either survived it or was brought into heaven, just leaving his body here?

More so, why should I believe your interpretation when it is clearly heavily biased and based primarily on blind faith?
 

Bowman

Active Member
How is it that from the earliest Islamic records, the idea that Jesus did not die by crucifixion has existed? Are you aware of the fact that many Muslims believe that Jesus was crucified, but either survived it or was brought into heaven, just leaving his body here?

More so, why should I believe your interpretation when it is clearly heavily biased and based primarily on blind faith?

You just confirmed to us that your Arabic is simply non-existent.

You can't even read simple Arabic sentence.

Why do you even bother replying to something that you know absolutely nothing about?

rotflol....!
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
You just confirmed to us that your Arabic is simply non-existent.

You can't even read simple Arabic sentence.

Why do you even bother replying to something that you know absolutely nothing about?

rotflol....!
Why would it honestly matter? Non-existent Arabic is probably better than a flawed understanding of the language, in addition to an extreme bias towards the subject. But debating it probably to hard for you anyway, which is why you rely on insults, and ignorance. Hasn't gotten you very far yet.

Oh, and I do have some understanding of Arabic. Granted it's been nearly half a decade since I've actually used it at all (as in since I converted from Islam).
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
It seems logical to me he was crucified..Hes running around town breakign the "rules" and being realy nice to most people especially people most wouldnt have been..Stirring up trouble and saying in the name of God(or in fact he was god ) and changing the rules..had a signifcant following...(well had perked up many ears)

So they wanted to make him shut up ...

No doubt he was crucified..Not in my mind..He wasnt the type to run and hide..(doesnt seem anyway)..So they got rid of him..

But HA HA!!! Not really..we are still talking about him now arent we? A couple thousand years later and not just in school?

Hes pretty impressive..

Love

DAllas
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
Wouldnt you love it..if 2,000 years from now billions of people were talking about you?Fighting over the fact if you were executed by crucifiction or not?

A new religion was formed in your name that billions folllwed and other had to admit you were included in theres that trickled off of you/

Dripping...

Love

Dallas
 

Bowman

Active Member
Why would it honestly matter? Non-existent Arabic is probably better than a flawed understanding of the language, in addition to an extreme bias towards the subject. But debating it probably to hard for you anyway, which is why you rely on insults, and ignorance. Hasn't gotten you very far yet.

It matters because you have chosen to enter into conversation in an area entitled...'SCRIPTURAL DEBATE'...that's why...

Now...why would you do this if you have absolutely no idea what you are even talking about, and you refuse to even discuss scripture?

Go home.





Oh, and I do have some understanding of Arabic. Granted it's been nearly half a decade since I've actually used it at all (as in since I converted from Islam).

Nope.

You have absolutely zero understanding of Arabic...as already proven...
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
It matters because you have chosen to enter into conversation in an area entitled...'SCRIPTURAL DEBATE'...that's why...

Now...why would you do this if you have absolutely no idea what you are even talking about, and you refuse to even discuss scripture?

Go home.
I've discussed scripture. It's not my fault that you can't read my posts. And I was talking about why would it matter if I could read Arabic. I can read the same verse in English, and consult experts on the Quran to see how they interpret it and why. Or I can use a Quran commentary, and see why something is translated a certain way as well as what the scholarly population believes the verse to mean.
Nope.

You have absolutely zero understanding of Arabic...as already proven...
Seriously, that is your argument? You are claiming to know me, and what I have knowledge of, better than I do? Maybe that is why you simply can't debate, because you have no logic.
 

Bowman

Active Member
I've discussed scripture. It's not my fault that you can't read my posts. And I was talking about why would it matter if I could read Arabic. I can read the same verse in English, and consult experts on the Quran to see how they interpret it and why. Or I can use a Quran commentary, and see why something is translated a certain way as well as what the scholarly population believes the verse to mean.


You were given a Koranic verse, and you ignored it.

No 'consulting experts' ....nothing.

You have nothing except an endless stream of excuses.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
You were given a Koranic verse, and you ignored it.

No 'consulting experts' ....nothing.

You have nothing except an endless stream of excuses.
Come off it! To you, Mohammed himself would be "nothing but an endless string of excuses."
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
You were given a Koranic verse, and you ignored it.

No 'consulting experts' ....nothing.

You have nothing except an endless stream of excuses.
Because I know it would be pointless. You have yet to prove any point, so why should I try to disprove something that is already disproven? It is a waste of time.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
You just can't seem to talk scripture, brother.

Why then, do you slavishly reply in a 'SCRIPTURAL DEBATE', forum...?

Go fly your airplane...
Apparently, you're unaware that debating scripture does not dictate that specific scripture be cited in every single post.

BTW, who died and made you the boss of the forum? You seem to want to make up your own rules about what, how, and where to debate and then chase the rest of us off.
:ignore:
 

Bowman

Active Member
Apparently, you're unaware that debating scripture does not dictate that specific scripture be cited in every single post.

BTW, who died and made you the boss of the forum? You seem to want to make up your own rules about what, how, and where to debate and then chase the rest of us off.
:ignore:


More excuses.
 
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