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Was Jesus born on Christmas?

Discussion in 'Christianity DIR' started by Spiderman, Dec 26, 2014.

  1. peacecrusader888

    peacecrusader888 Active Member

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    @Katzpur
    Then you mean that making Himself into three is impossible to God. He is then not omnipotent. He is not God. Is that what you mean?

    When you are thinking like which is the one should I make first, who answers your question? We, ourselves. Who decides? We, ourselves. Therefore, you are one. God the Father decides. The one asked, God the Son. God the Holy Spirit, which one. That is the answer. You are three but you are only one. (PAHAYAG NG ESPIRITU SANTO - 036 - “Paliwanag tungkol sa Trinity” – in Filipino)

    In Isaiah 7:14, God became a human being, to wit: “Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.” God describes the child in Isaiah, 9:6, to wit: “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”
     
  2. Eliab ben Benjamin

    Eliab ben Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    I think you need to re-check your translation of the passage .... In Hebrew the word you
    mistranslated as virgin is "Almah " and is young woman and not virgin .. besides that passage
    of Isaiah is about another child born who actually did rule for a while ....

    perhaps your thread should be " Was Jesus born ? "
     
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  3. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I never said it's impossible to God. It's simply unnecessary. Your question reminds me of one atheists love to ask theists: Can God create a rock so big that He cannot lift it?
     
  4. hispanicmormon

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    There are similar verses in the Book of Mormon about God the Father and Jesus Christ being one. In one verse, Jesus says, "I am the Father and the Son." The difference between Mormons and Christians who believe in creeds developed centuries after Jesus is that Mormons believe that, although the Father and the Son are so inseparable that they can be considered one in purpose, they are still separate personages. When Jesus got baptized, in the Bible, all 3 members of the Godhead (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) appear as 3 separate personages. Jesus comes out of the water, the voice of the Father is heard which says "This is my beloved Son," and the Holy Ghost appears in the form of a dove.

    God made himself into 3. He took a part of himself and created a spirit with no body called the Holy Ghost. He took a part of himself and made a Son named Jesus Christ. In fact, all of us were in the beginning with God (as it states in the Doctrine and Covenants). We were all made out of the intelligence of God. And we can all, like Jesus Christ, progress to be just like God is now. We are joint heirs with Jesus Christ as stated in Romans.
     
  5. peacecrusader888

    peacecrusader888 Active Member

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    @Katzpur and Eliab ben Benjamin
    Jesus said in John 14:9, “Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? He that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?” This clearly confirms what Jesus said in John 10:30, “I and my Father are one.”

    This is what Jesus said in Matthew 21:42-44,
    42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, the stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes?
    43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
    44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

    Please read the explanation in http://aristean.org/wp085.htm titled “Taken from the Jews”.
     
  6. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Yes, they are absolutely "one." It is, however, entirely possible to be "one" in ways other than numerical. There are numerous instances where the word "one" is found in the scriptures denoting a unity which is not physical:

    Exodus 24:3 says, "And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do."

    2 Corinthians 13:11 says, "Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you."

    Acts 4:32 states, "And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common."

    In each of these examples, the word "one" is used to describe a unity that has nothing to do with the numeral "1". Trinitarians continue to say that the Father and the Son are "one in substance," but when pressed for passages that confirm their belief, they are unable to.
     
  7. hispanicmormon

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    Actually, the quote you quoted in this reply does sort of suggest that the Father and the Son are one in substance. Jesus is asking them why they ask Him to show the Father when if you've seen Him you've seen the Father. But there is at least one example of the Father and the Son being separate personages in the account of Jesus' baptism. Jesus also refers to His Father in heaven many times as if He is a separate personage.

    The point is that people can read the Bible and find examples of both one-in-substance doctrine and separate-personages doctrine. It is only through latter-day revelation that we know that any references to Jesus and the Father being one are merely metaphorical, just like in the scriptures you posted in your reply.
     
  8. peacecrusader888

    peacecrusader888 Active Member

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    @Katzpur and hispanicmormon
    This is what the spirit of Ama said: “You [the listeners] said you do not agree [that your children will not recognize your mother], and that will suffice. If I will explain more than that, you will look for many books other than the Holy Bible, which will not heal your soul. So we will remain with what is in the Holy Bible so that the life of Jesus Christ and His disciples will only be what you learn. ‘The one who saw Me had seen the Father because the Father and I are one.’ The Holy Bible says.”

    “If we have faith in the Holy Bible, we believe in what it says. ‘I and the Father are one.’ Believe in what I am saying to you now. If the Holy Bible leads one to the straight path, it also leads one to his being lost because the interpretation of a person who is reading it leads to his being lost. The Holy Bible or Holy Will is holy but to a temple, what enters is a good spirit but also a bad spirit. That is why I say to you to be cautious in using the Holy Will or Holy Bible.”

    “There are many people who have become crazy because of the Holy Bible and many have been driven away to the true and important faith by the Holy Bible. Man uses the Holy Bible so that he will reap heap of [material] wealth.”

    In Revelation 22:16, God revealed who He is. He is Jesus Christ!

    It seems that Jesus Christ and the Father are “separate personages”. But Jesus Christ is only teaching us how to call on the Father. Please read Sermon 003 - Father, do not forsake Me titled “Father, do not forsake Me.”
     
  9. peacecrusader888

    peacecrusader888 Active Member

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    Part 8 – The lunar eclipse and the fast

    This is how I:
    1. Discovered that Jesus was 32 solar years old and not 33;
    2. Discovered that the Jews used to celebrate the fast of Esther in March and not in February;
    3. Confirmed that the Jews were celebrating Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread (Pesach) using a lunar calendar; and
    4. Concluded what the Jews did during the reformation of the Jewish calendar as we know it today.

    First, I will describe how I discovered that Jesus was 32 solar years old and not 33. When you say you are 40 years old, you are 40 solar years old. One solar year has 365/366 days, while in the Holy Bible, years are in lunar years. One lunar year has 354/355 days.

    The ministry of Jesus started when He was about 30 (Luke 3:23) plus three Passovers (John 2:13, 6:6, 11:55) equals 33 years. I thought Jesus was 33 years old when He died.

    If He died in 1 BC, therefore it must had been in the year 34 BC when He was born. But it was not as explained herein.

    The first century AD historian Flavius Josephus said in Antiquities, Book XVII, Chapter 6, Section 4: “And that very night there was an eclipse of the moon.” A lunar eclipse seen in Jerusalem!

    There were two lunar eclipses in 34 BC: one on April 13 (Julian calendar date) at 4:16 Universal Time (U.T. – time in London, England used as reference time) or 6:16 am Jerusalem time, and one on October 7 (Julian) at 7:00 U.T. or 9:00 am Jerusalem time. Both eclipses occurred during the day in Jerusalem, hence, they could not have been observed there but were observed elsewhere in the world. This is the reason why 34 BC is discounted as the year when Jesus was born.

    There were also two lunar eclipses in 33 BC: one on April 1 (Julian) at 21:13 U.T. or 11:13 pm Jerusalem time and on September 25 at 7:13 U.T. or 9:13 am Jerusalem time (Source from the Internet: Eclipse Predictions by Fred Espenak, NASA/GSFC, Lunar Eclipses, 100 BCE to 1 BCE). April 1 is chosen because it occurred in the evening that made the eclipse visible in Jerusalem. September 25 in not chosen because it occurred in the morning (Jerusalem time), hence, the eclipse was not as clear and noticeable if it occurred in the evening.
     
  10. peacecrusader888

    peacecrusader888 Active Member

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    Part 9 – Lunar eclipse and fast

    I have described previously how I discovered that Jesus was 32 solar years old and not 33. Now, the second. I will describe how I discovered that the Jews used to celebrate the fast of Esther in March and not in February.

    The fast of Esther occurred after the fall of Jerusalem to the Babylonians during the seventh century BC. When Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians, Zechariah in chapter 8 verse 19 mentioned only four fasts as follows:
    1. The fast of the fourth month (Tammuz 17, Shiva, ‘Asar be-Tammuz’),
    2. The fast of the fifth (Av 9, ‘Tisha be-Av’);
    3. The fast of the seventh (Tishri 3, Fast of Gedaliah or ‘Tzom Gedaliahu’); and
    4. The fast of the tenth (Tevet 10, ‘Asara be-Tevet’).

    The fast of Esther must have been instituted at a later date when the Jews returned from Babylonia after their exile there.

    The first century historian Flavius Josephus wrote in Antiquities , Book XVII, Chapter 6, Section 4: “Now it happened, that during the time of the high priesthood of this Matthias, there was another person made high priest for a single day, that very day which the Jews observed as a fast. The occasion was this: This Matthias the high priest, on the night before that day when the fast was to be celebrated, seemed, in a dream, to have conversation with his wife; and because he could not officiate himself on that account, Joseph, the son of Ellemus, his kinsman, assisted him in that sacred office. But Herod deprived this Matthias of the high priesthood, and burnt the other Matthias, who had raised the sedition, with his companions, alive. And that very night there was an eclipse of the moon.”

    When does a lunar eclipse occur? It occurs only when the moon is full. The full moon occurs on the 15th of the Jewish month. This full moon occurred in the month of Nisan. And we know that of the four fasts that Zechariah mentioned, nothing occurred in the Jewish month of Nisan and on the 15th. This fast of Esther must be that fast.

    The fast of Esther was held before on Nisan 15 (Esther 3:12, 4:16). When the Passover Festival was fixed on Nisan 14-21 during the Jewish reformation of the Jewish calendar in 358/359 AD, the fast of Esther was moved to Adar 13 to be with the associated Feast of Lots or Purim.
     
  11. peacecrusader888

    peacecrusader888 Active Member

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    Part 10 - Birth of Jesus

    A decree was sent out that the world should be taxed. All went to his own city to register and be taxed. Since Joseph is from the city of David which is called Bethlehem, he and his espoused wife Mary who was heavily pregnant, went and obeyed the decree.

    Here is the schedule of the travel of Joseph and Mary from Nazareth to Bethlehem:
    Saturday, 33 BC 05-18, 3728 Sivan 5, Jewish sabbath, Acts 1:12
    Sunday, 33 BC 05-19, 3728 Sivan 6, departure from Nazareth to Bethlehem, Luke 2:1-5, first day of travel
    Monday, 33 BC 05-20, 3728 Sivan 7, second day of travel
    Tuesday, 33 BC 05-21, 3728 Sivan 8, third day of travel
    Wednesday, 33 BC 05-22, 3728 Sivan 9, fourth day of travel, arrival in Bethlehem
    Thursday, 33 BC 05-23, 3728 Sivan 10, birth of Jesus, Luke 2:6-20; Matthew 1:23; Isaiah 7:14

    Joseph and Mary left Nazareth for Bethlehem the following day after the Jewish sabbath of 3728 Sivan 5 since they couldn’t travel far on a sabbath day. They reached Bethlehem after four days because Mary was heavily pregnant and could travel about 27km per day only.

    Since they were poor, the people in Bethlehem did not accommodate them in their homes even though Joseph was from the house and lineage of David. They did not take pity of the status of Mary.

    Joseph and Mary found a cave for farm animals at the outskirts of town. Since it was spring, the shepherds took their animals to the field to feed on the abundant tender grass. This is were they spent the night. The spirit of Ama said that Jesus was born at 1:50am of 05-23. The cave lighted up and smelled fragrantly.

    The shepherds were afraid when an angel of the Lord came and announced the birth of the Messiah. The shepherds were the first visitors of Jesus. They bent their knees and kissed the feet of the newborn child in recognition of Him as their true king. The three kings in different places were informed of His birth and arrived two weeks later.

    These are in Matthew 1:18-25; Luke 2:1-20; and Pasiong Mahal, pages 19-22.
     
  12. peacecrusader888

    peacecrusader888 Active Member

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    Part 11 - Birth of Jesus - circumcision and new person

    Presently, we celebrate the birth of Jesus on Christmas Day, 12-25 in most Western Christian churches, and 01-07 on the Eastern Orthodox churches. The spirit of Ama says that Jesus was born on 05-23, and from 2004 to 2006, more than 20 years since I first heard it, I was able to prove that this is correct, the results of which is in Revelation and Proofs: Jesus Christ was born on May 23, 33 B.C. .

    According to Ama, there should not be mass on Christmas Day because the mass is about the death of Jesus. He was just born and then we talk about His death already. So it is not right to have mass on this day. What He recommends is we talk about His birth and reminisces about happy times. Since there is no mass on Christmas Day, I suggest that Christmas Day be called Nativity Day.

    Luke 2:21 states, “And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.” This eighth day is in Genesis 17:12, 21:4; and Leviticus 12:3. Pasiong Mahal, on page 22, states that this circumcision is the first drop of blood of the Messiah who bore the sins and delivered the people whom He loved.

    According to Ama, by being baptized, a person is registered in Heaven. Jesus said in John 3:5, “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

    On the eighth day is also the New Person (“Bagong Tao”). It falls on 05-30.
     
  13. peacecrusader888

    peacecrusader888 Active Member

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    Part 12 – Birth of Jesus – The Three Kings

    The three kings is celebrated as Epiphany, now, on the Sunday between 01-02 and 01-08 inclusive. It used to be on 01-06.

    Oftentimes, what is depicted in the nativity scene are Jesus, Mary, Joseph, some shepherds, and the three kings. But when Jesus was born, that was the only time when the Star of Bethlehem appeared to the three kings. It took them fourteen days, on 33 BC 06-06 to be exact, when they reached Jesus. Two weeks and not two years.

    They were really kings, not magi, which the spirit of Ama revealed to us (plural), confirming what is stated on pages 23-25 of Pasiong Mahal. Their names were Melchor, Gaspar, and Baltazar from three different kingdoms east of Jerusalem, namely: Saba or Sheba (I think, now is Yemen), Arabia (now Saudi Arabia), and Persia (now Iran).

    When they arrived at where Jesus was, they kissed His feet and offered their gifts. They also laid their scepters and crowns at the feet of Jesus.

    King Melchor offered bitter myrrh “because He is true man who will save mankind from sins.” King Gaspar offered frankincense “because He is true God, merciful and savior to a praying person.” King Baltazar offered gold “because He is truly king, owner and holder of gold and this world.” (Quotations from Pasiong Mahal which I hope I have translated properly.)

    The Three Kings are in Matthew 2:1-18 and Pasiong Mahal, pages 23-25.
     
  14. Nada

    Nada #

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    It never says anywhere in the holy scriptures that there were three kings.It never says anywhere that there were 3 of them.That is an assumption based on the number of gifts.It also never says
    they "laid their scepters and crowns at the feet of Jesus." It also says Magi.It would have taken these Magi way way longer than 2 weeks to reach Jesus.These Magi came from the east.They used camel caravans back then.We are talking almost 1,000 miles. It is 970 miles from Tehran Iran to Jerusalem.It took them over a year to get there.Jesus was already a child.It tells you in the holy scriptures that the child was with his mother in a house.
     
  15. peacecrusader888

    peacecrusader888 Active Member

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    Part 13 - Birth of Jesus – Departure of the Three Kings

    Pasiong Mahal on page 25 says after a few days of their visit, they bid adieu to Joseph and Mary. The spirit of Ama said that the Three Kings stayed at Bethlehem for one week. Their stay in Bethlehem would be from 33 BC 06-06 to 06-13 or 3728 Sivan 24 to Tammuz 1.

    Matthew 2:12 states: “And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.” Pasiong Mahal says that on the night before they finally departed, an angel of the Lord told them not to show up to Herod anymore.

    They heeded what the angel told them. They passed in another way to avoid Jerusalem. Since they came from the east of Palestine, namely, Persia, Arabia, and Saba, their kingdoms must be beyond the Dead Sea. Since it was June, there was no rain. The wadi of Kidron was dry and not dangerous to cross or traverse. The Kidron passes south of Jerusalem and empties into the Dead Sea.

    They might have travelled to Ein Feshcha which was due east of Bethlehem, north to Qumran, and to the northern tip of the Dead Sea.
     
  16. atpollard

    atpollard Active Member

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    They "don't need no stinkin' scriptures." ... peacecrusader888 has an old man possessed by the spirit of the Holy Spirit making predictions that do not come true, contradicting almost everything that the Bible says and directly telling them how things really were and how all of the writers have gotten it wrong (notice, for example, that Jesus was really born in 33 BC).

    Stepping back to see the forest for the trees, three kings barely rates an eyebrow twitch. :)
     
  17. Nada

    Nada #

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    :eek:
     
  18. peacecrusader888

    peacecrusader888 Active Member

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    @Bible Student
    True, that the Holy Bible, King James Version (KJV), does not say:
    1. There were three kings. There is no “magi” in the KJV. Matthew 2:1, 7, 16 say “wise men”.
    2. There were three of them. Assumed based on the number of gifts given—gold, myrrh, and frankincense. (Matthew 2:11)
    3. They “laid their scepters and crowns at the feet of Jesus”.
    4. They used camel caravans.

    I have said that these are what I heard the spirit of Ama said and/or in Pasiong Mahal (PM), which Ama recommends that we read also. These are what is in PM, pp 23-25:
    1. They were three kings from different kingdoms east of Palestine. They did not know of each other ‘s travel. They were following the star. They only met when they were approaching Jerusalem.
    2. They were called “haring mago” (king magi) or three kings, kings, but individually, they are called King Baltazar, King Gaspar, etc.
    3. How do you worship an infant king? And if you were a king, how would you worship the king that placed you as king in the first place?
    4. They used the swift dromedaries or Arabian camels which have one hump on its back and used for riding. PM on p 24 says they were really swift.

    The Holy Bible mentions “young child” for an infant (Matthew 2:8, 9, 11, 13, 14). Young child is really a young child, as we know it, in Matthew 2:20, 21.
     
  19. Nada

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    There were not three of them.It never implies this.3 gifts does not determine the number of Magi.We know that the Magi did not see baby Jesus right away because the trip would last long.If you go to the Greek Interlinear and read Matthew 2:11 it says child not infant.paidion παιδίον (child)

    Matthew 2:11 Interlinear: and having come to the house, they found the child with Mary his mother, and having fallen down they bowed to him, and having opened their treasures, they presented to him gifts, gold, and frankincense, and myrrh,

    It also says child in the Emphatic Diaglott.

    Herod killed all boys in Bethlehem “from two years of age and under” in his attempt to murder Jesus. That implies that their visit took place quite a while after Jesus’ birth.—Matthew 2:11, 16.


    Herod knew how old Jesus would be by asking the Magi when it was they first saw the star.

    Matthew 2:7 Then Herod called the Magi secretly and found out from them the exact time the star had appeared. (NIV)
     
  20. Nada

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    "Notice that the account states just “wise men,” not “three wise men,” and that they first traveled from the east to Jerusalem, not to the birth city of Jesus, Bethlehem. By the time they finally reached Bethlehem, Jesus was a “young child”—no longer a baby—and no longer in a stable but in a house.

    Also, while the King James Bible uses the words “wise men” in describing these visitors, other translations use “Magi” or “astrologers.” According to A Handbook on the Gospel of Matthew, the expression “wise men” translates “a Greek noun which originally referred to Persian priests who were experts in astrology.” And The Expanded Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words defines the word as “a wizard, sorcerer, a pretender to magic powers, a professor of the arts of witchcraft.”'

    (WOL)


    "What the Bible says: The Bible does not say how many “wise men” visited Jesus. There may have been two, or there may have been three, four, or more. Although termed “wise men” in some Bible translations, the original-language word is magoi, which means astrologers or sorcerers—professions that the Bible says are “detestable to Jehovah.” (Deuteronomy 18:10-12) By virtue of their long journey from the East, the astrologers did not arrive in time to visit Jesus in the stable. Rather, after perhaps months of travel, they “went into the house” where Jesus was staying. There they saw “the young child with Mary its mother.”—Matthew 2:11."
     
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