Was Jesus a God who became man or visa versa

[Ben Dhyan]

Since God is both transcendent to creation and immanent in it,...the answer is,.. both.

Jesus could be considered an avatar as per Hindu esoteric understanding, ie. the secondary incarnation of God into an already existing adult human body purged and purified by a primary incarnation which was the person from birth to the time of it's sacrifice when it makes way for the Divine union.

Result,..the Father and I are one!

Jesus could have also been, simply a man who learned to be obedient to 'Who He Was,' for 'Who He Was,' just like 'Who I Am,' to whom I am an obedient servant is joined to his beginnings by an unbroken genetic thread of life, and 'Who I Am' is not under the penality of death and can never die. If 'Who You Are' becomes you and you become 'Who You Are,' then death shall have no power over you.

Once Jesus discovered 'Who He Was' and became obedient to his inner saviour who was the compilation of all his ancestors who had fallen asleep in righteousness, his saviour and indwelling Father spirit, then began to die in the process of involution to become one with his obedient servant, releasing those righteous spirits from the least to the greatest, diminishing into apparent nothingness while Jesus who died to who he once was and who was obedient to each quickening spirit, grew in wisdom, knowledge and insight untill he was the compilation of all the spirits of his good ancestors who had died in righteousness and were judged and found worty of the resurrection. In the process of involution the Father became the Son and in the process of evolution the Son became the Father. But do you know who the Father is?

Thank you S-word, the message you give, despite the very different language of delivery, appears to reasonably congruent with my presesent understanding.

Yes, in my post there is an unintended error that you picked up on, ie. Jesus is the primary incarnation, ie. a man, and not the secondary one.

Now the secondary incarnation (hope you find that the language I am using is sufficiently congruent with your understanding as to not pose a problem) which I posited as Father is the subject of your question.

Now my present understanding is incomplete in this regard so I am open to advice. However, in a general sense, one would intuit that the secondary Divine incarnation would probably be a planetary spirit in the hierarchical scheme of things, or a solar.

 

[Troublemane]

In my understanding of it, God is the Supreme Intelligence or the Mind of Existence itself- the Totality of existence, the All (including all the vastness we are not able to imagine).

There are layers of existence, determined by degree of compositional complexity (i.e. atomic level, molecular level, chemical, biological, genetic, racial, familal, birth-order, etc.); by internal complexity (technologically,mentally,culturally, educationally,developmentally,ethically, spiritually, etc.); and just as there are levels of awareness within a person, according to their stage of developmental growth, so to there are stages of development among cultures.

For example, 100k years ago the 'standard model' of reality/god was of near-animalistic fear for the forces of nature, and the method of dealing with it was to create rituals to expell bad spirits/ appease the angry sky noises.

10,000 years ago the development of agriculture allowed our ancestors to begin living in cities, and collectivization of tribal deities began. The rise of the ruling/sky god marches hand in hand with the rise of nation-states, and the hierarchy of heaven exactly mirrors the social hierarchy of the culture. And as language develops, so too do the stories about the Gods/Heroes. God lives in words now rather than in symbols. In order to invoke the God we only speak about Him, read of His exploits and re-enact His story in ritual form. (vestiges of magic remain...)

About 2,500 years ago (with advent of Buddha), an awareness began to gain ground which was itself of a divine nature, not by attempting to control or appease the Divine as previous methods, but in examining the self and carefully removing that which was not already part of the Divine Consciousness. I would say this was the moment of the awakening within man of the divine part of him which had been there all along.

So, whereas awareness in Man (and nature in general) is relative according to degrees of development, awareness in God is unlimited and absolute- since God embodies all things, including all future states of awareness. However, the experience in man is that as we develop, all previous levels we have already progressed through (archaic, magic, mythic...) will appear subsumed INSIDE the SubConscious---appearing to the conscious mind as beneath the surface, somewhere "in there". And likewise, levels of awareness that are not part of the current model of self-awareness (i.e., psychic, subtle, causal, non-dual...) will appear to the conscious self as being OUTSIDE the conscious self---appearing transcendent and "above" the self, "Out There".

...hope you see where i am going with this....

Awareness of God always begins with an awareness of levels of self that are unrealized and appear as transcendent, "out there", until we are able to progress enough to make them "in here", BUT there is always continued growth and as we continue to progress the idea of what constitues "out there" will always be higher and higher. And likewise, as we progress, the parts of awareness that are currently considered quite advanced will one day be subsumed into the subconscious---child's play.

But even so, what we call God Awareness, or the light of the divine will be constant, it is only how we perceive it which changes.

Now, in answer to the OP---Jesus became aware of his own Godliness, and the inherent Godliness of us all, what might be called 'Buddha-Nature'. He tried to communicate this message to others, and was killed for it, but his message lived on beyond his physical death. So, was Jesus God? No, he was not....and yes he was. As are we all.

It just depends on your level of development. :angel2:

 

[S-word]

In my understanding of it, God is the Supreme Intelligence or the Mind of Existence itself- the Totality of existence, the All (including all the vastness we are not able to imagine).

You would undoubtedly have heard the old adage, “If a tree were to fall in a forest where there was no ear, then there would be no sound”. It is the ear, which creates the perception of sound; silent shock waves travel outward from the point of impact, on entering the created ear, those silent waves are converted into electric pulses, which are sent to the created brain, where they are translated as sound. And so it is with the visible solid three-dimensional world in which we live.

Take away the created eyes which give to us a perception of form, colour, distance etc and the visual world ceases to exist. The sweet fragrance of a flower is nothing more than a combination of molecules that enter your created nostrils; the molecules themselves have no smell, it is the message transmitted by the created nostrils that is translated by the created brain as a scented smell. Solid objects—Hot and cold and the variations between cannot exist without a physical body etc. If memory were able to survive the destruction of the physical body, how would it maintain its identity, it’s individuality, in an invisible world of shimmering, vibrating, dancing Photons or wave particles which are not particles at all?

A world without colour, light, darkness, heat, cold, scent or sound? A world where only memories remain, memories of Joy, of sadness, of pain, of peace, of love and of hate, of sheer exhilaration and bottomless despair? Perhaps if the spirit, the memory, the mind, which is to be born from these individual temporary wombs that we call our bodies, were to learn while in these bodies to feel the gentle guiding pricks of the inner spirit; perhaps if our minds were trained to use our sixth sense, the spiritual sense which goes beyond the five physical senses of the body, we may be able in the spiritual and invisible dimension, to navigate, negotiate and communicate with others in that same realm, and perhaps be able to manifest ourselves in this three dimensional world in whichever time or space we so choose?

WHO ARE YOU? It would be nice to think that you are simply the mind that has developed in that physical body and will continues to develop, gaining knowledge and wisdom as you interact with whatever environment that you find yourself into all eternity. But would it be at all possible for the mind that is you, to fly free of the body and to continue to grow and expand without it? Without the body, you could not even have come into existence let alone grow from the interaction of your physical senses with the rest of the Cosmos. You are a triad being consisting of body, soul and spirit; your body is made up of fire, air, water and earth. Starlight, Carbon molecules from the air, water molecules, plus elements of the earth which had been converted to fruit, vegetables, grain and meat etc, by the Logos or universal creative forces from which products made of earth your body was created: For dust thou art and to dust thou shall return.

The term (your body) would seem to imply that you are a separate entity from your body, which has always existed in some form or another. All that your body was formed from is as old as the Cosmos itself and the Logos that has formed the Cosmos also formed and activates your body and so the question remains, “who are you?” Were you in that body when it was an unfertilized egg within your mother’s fallopian tube were you there at the point of fertilisation? If that body was born defective, having neither the sense of sight, hearing, taste, smell or touch, could you, the mind or the spirit, have ever formed at all to become an extension to the eternal ancestral spirit within that defective living lump of meat? Would that lump of living defective flesh have ever developed a personality, a godhead?

All that was used to create your body may be eternal, but the form, the shape that it took as your body, is only temporary: Is it as the great Omar Khayyam says, only the Master, whose secret presence runs throughout the veins of creation? Is it only He who takes on all shapes from moon to fish, which shapes change and perish all, while He remains an eternal constant, in that he is constantly changing? Are you simply a temporary mind, who is one with that temporary physical shape which is destined to dissolve and merge back into the oneness of the Cosmic being? Are you simply a momentary ripple in the fabric of eternal space; the curtain that God stretched out as a tent to dwell in; a temporary receiver in this 3 dimensional space-time, which feeds into the Cosmic mind? Or are you a forming spiritual foetus within that lump of Cosmic material, a forming foetus which has the potential of being born into the family of God, a child to the eternal Cosmic mind that is God? The shimmering, vibrating, dancing matrix mind, that great ocean of tranquillity which is the only reality and which our senses perceive as the physical Cosmos, is the stuff of poems and songs and is expressed as such, by those who thrill to the joy of being.

 

[Troublemane]

.... Or are you a forming spiritual foetus within that lump of Cosmic material, a forming foetus which has the potential of being born into the family of God, a child to the eternal Cosmic mind that is God? The shimmering, vibrating, dancing matrix mind, that great ocean of tranquillity which is the only reality and which our senses perceive as the physical Cosmos, is the stuff of poems and songs and is expressed as such, by those who thrill to the joy of being.

Aren't we all members of the family of God? or are you speaking of a specific kind of awareness, as in being aware of being part of the divine?

I see ultimate reality however as not so much an ocean of tranquility. The Void (in my inderstanding) is pregnant with all possibility, all opposites annihilating each other simultaneously. Which is why its the void---not empty, not full, not peaceful either, not warlike. All opposites cancel out in the Void.....but, all are present as well. Apart from that we seem to agree splendidly :angel2:

 

[S-word]

Quote.........Troublemane
Aren't we all members of the family of God? or are you speaking of a specific kind of awareness, as in being aware of being part of the divine?

Psalms 82: 6, "You are gods" I said; "all of you are sons of the most high. But you will die like men; your life will end like that of any prince."