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Was Christ Crucified | Debate | Floyd Clark & Ahmed Deedat
- Thread starter Qaazi
- Start date
Both the Quran and Bible say he was crucified, and then illiterate people since then, have created the idea they are opposite to each other.
4:157-158 And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure. No indeed, Allah raised him up to Him; and Allah has been Ever-Mighty, Ever-Wise.
Matthew 20:18-19 Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death, and deliver Him to the Gentiles to mock and to scourge and to crucify. And the third day He will rise again.
The Quran never said it didn't happen; just that it wasn't their plan, instead Allah foretold, and allowed everything to happen, as both texts related.
4:157-158 And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure. No indeed, Allah raised him up to Him; and Allah has been Ever-Mighty, Ever-Wise.
Matthew 20:18-19 Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death, and deliver Him to the Gentiles to mock and to scourge and to crucify. And the third day He will rise again.
The Quran never said it didn't happen; just that it wasn't their plan, instead Allah foretold, and allowed everything to happen, as both texts related.
Qaazi
Member
Quran does not say he was crucified. Check below the Verse you yourself quoted from the Quran
That says it appears like it happened; therefore the Quran stated it happened...
If the Quran had said he wasn't to die, and he didn't get crucified in the slightest, and they just made it all up, then there would be a case.
Personally find this like people just trying to rewrite the Quran, to make up an opposition ideology, that doesn't exist within the original texts.
That says it appears like it happened; therefore the Quran stated it happened...
If the Quran had said he wasn't to die, and he didn't get crucified in the slightest, and they just made it all up, then there would be a case.
Personally find this like people just trying to rewrite the Quran, to make up an opposition ideology, that doesn't exist within the original texts.
The verse says, he was neither killed or crucified. So what does it mean when it was made to 'appeared to them so'? We read in accounts left out of the Bible, there was another man who was killed by mistake, Simon of Cyrene. We have to remember Jesus pbuh stayed up all night praying to be saved, so much so, he sweated blood under intense stress. Are we to believe GOD would abandon his Messiah?
The plan that is stated within the prophets, is that the Messiah is meant to suffer these things (Isaiah 53, Zechariah 11, Daniel 9); Yeshua stated he would suffer these things.
It doesn't say he wasn't killed, as the Quran instructed he would be killed in multiple places.... It is saying "they" didn't do it, it was God's plan as the prophets stated.
3:55 And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed.
5:117 I did not say to them aught save what Thou didst enjoin me with: That serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst cause me to die, Thou were the watcher over them, and Thou art witness of all things.
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rocala
Well-Known Member
@Muslim-UK Some people believe that
Personally I do not find it very convincing.
is a reference to the Jews making the claim. They did not do it, the Romans did. The belief is that this part of the Quran is pointing this out and is not denying that the crucifixion took place. This may be what @wizanda is referring to?
Personally I do not find it very convincing.
Yes partially, "they" made the claim "they did it", and yet the whole thing was planned by the prophets, and as you rightly said, the Romans were the executioners.
It took place, and to deny it ever happened goes against both the Quran, and Bible.
Prof. Jamal Badawi introduces himself at 16:32 and provides a definition of the term Islam. He then preferences the debate with his own explanation for why he feels there are differences between Christians and Muslims in the first place:
"...The differences and problems that we find today among those 'followers' of these messengers and prophets may result, at times, from the misunderstanding or misinterpretation of the nature and mission of their prophets, or it could result also from the lack of commitment on the part of those who claim to follow Jesus or Muhammad (P.B.U. them) but not to try to implement the teaching taught by those two giants in their lives and as such we can never evaluate a religion or faith by the actions of those who claim to belong to it but rather to evaluate those who claim to belong to any faith according to the standards of that faith according to the authentic teaching by the great prophets of those ways of life or faith I should say. Among many of the prophets who are mentioned in the Q'uran five are singled out as the greatest..." (Times 18:42 to 19:39)
I absolutely disagree with the underlined statement. We must evaluate a religion or a faith by the actions of those who claim to belong to it, even if that means considering one faith to actually be multiple separate faiths with a common scripture. So, what you have if people are not living what they say is another faith or another religion or multiple religions. This goes for all of the 'Large' religions. They are actually multiple religions, because the people in them behave very differently.
"...The differences and problems that we find today among those 'followers' of these messengers and prophets may result, at times, from the misunderstanding or misinterpretation of the nature and mission of their prophets, or it could result also from the lack of commitment on the part of those who claim to follow Jesus or Muhammad (P.B.U. them) but not to try to implement the teaching taught by those two giants in their lives and as such we can never evaluate a religion or faith by the actions of those who claim to belong to it but rather to evaluate those who claim to belong to any faith according to the standards of that faith according to the authentic teaching by the great prophets of those ways of life or faith I should say. Among many of the prophets who are mentioned in the Q'uran five are singled out as the greatest..." (Times 18:42 to 19:39)
I absolutely disagree with the underlined statement. We must evaluate a religion or a faith by the actions of those who claim to belong to it, even if that means considering one faith to actually be multiple separate faiths with a common scripture. So, what you have if people are not living what they say is another faith or another religion or multiple religions. This goes for all of the 'Large' religions. They are actually multiple religions, because the people in them behave very differently.
Floyd Clark speaks his ideas about Christianity and the crucifixion from 23:33 to 1:07:42
Ahmed Deedat is introduced at 1:09:40 and speaks his ideas about Islam and the crucifixion from 1:11:41 to 2:11:35
Ahmed Deedat is introduced at 1:09:40 and speaks his ideas about Islam and the crucifixion from 1:11:41 to 2:11:35
You appear to be using a translation from a person, who saw himself as a Prophet of God. Perhaps you can be mindful of that and use authorised translations?
[Mention] when Allah said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to Allah alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ. Qur'an 3:55
I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness. Qur'an 5:117
There is no crucifixion belief amongst the First century followers of Jesus pbuh. No trinity, Resurrection, original sin or anything taught by the later Church. They simply followed the Torah an kept the Commandments.
The authorship of the Shakir version is debated...
Shakir’s Quran translation
Thanks tho, on looking up 3:55 in Google translate the Arabic مُتَوَفِّيكَ is 'you are dead'.
Then in 5:117 Google translates the Arabic تَوَفَّيْتَنِي as 'you died'.
The Shakir version is on most scholarly Muslims sites; maybe write to them, and tell them.
Quran Chapter Al-Emran(3), VerseNo. (55)
Surah Ali 'Imran [3:55]
The following site al-Fatihah 1:1 will give you over 50 translations for future reference.The authorship of the Shakir version is debated...
Shakir’s Quran translation
Thanks tho, on looking up 3:55 in Google translate the Arabic مُتَوَفِّيكَ is 'you are dead'.
Then in 5:117 Google translates the Arabic تَوَفَّيْتَنِي as 'you died'.
The Shakir version is on most scholarly Muslims sites; maybe write to them, and tell them.
Quran Chapter Al-Emran(3), VerseNo. (55)
Surah Ali 'Imran [3:55]
We are caused to 'die' every night when we sleep. The same word is used in the verse in question.
The God of Abraham pbuh does not accept Human Sacrifices, nor does he allow someone to carry the sin for another.
Salam Aleykum, fellow Paltalkian... Thanks we've already discussed it in detail over the last few years.If you require further clarification, might I suggest you raise your hand for 'ColdXero' or D Lion King
Agreed, and wasn't trying to push any Christian ideology; as we can systematically end it, by explaining where Paul, John, and Simon are false.
My goal is just to stick to what is originally specified in the books, and justify what has taken place based on the evidence.
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arthra
Baha'i
The Baha'i view is that Jesus was martyred and that His Spirit ascended to God. I will add some of our reasoning for this based on the Qur'anic verses and verses from the Gospel of Luke.
The Baha'i view is that Jesus was physically crucified.. and that His Spirit ascended reconciles Muslims and Christians ...
Consider Surih 4 verse 157
Translation of A.Yusuf Ali
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
and recall the earlier verse in Surih 2:154
And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah: "They are dead." Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not.
The verse focuses on the reality of the spirit of the martyr who was slain! The spirit is living.
The same can be said in my view to the Surih 4:157.... while the corporeal body was crucified the Spirit of Jesus was not killed...but in Surih 4 verse 158:
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
There is also very lovely way this is confirmed by the Gospel of Luke..
The last words of Jesus on the cross according to the Gospel of Luke translated in the Jerusalem Bible read:
....and when Jesus had cried out in a loud voice, He said, "Father, into Your hands I commit my Spirit" with these words he breathed His last.
~ Luke 22:46
So Jesus committed His Spirit to God and the Qur'an says Allah raised him up unto Himself.
The Baha'i view is that Jesus was physically crucified.. and that His Spirit ascended reconciles Muslims and Christians ...
Consider Surih 4 verse 157
Translation of A.Yusuf Ali
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
and recall the earlier verse in Surih 2:154
And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah: "They are dead." Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not.
The verse focuses on the reality of the spirit of the martyr who was slain! The spirit is living.
The same can be said in my view to the Surih 4:157.... while the corporeal body was crucified the Spirit of Jesus was not killed...but in Surih 4 verse 158:
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
There is also very lovely way this is confirmed by the Gospel of Luke..
The last words of Jesus on the cross according to the Gospel of Luke translated in the Jerusalem Bible read:
....and when Jesus had cried out in a loud voice, He said, "Father, into Your hands I commit my Spirit" with these words he breathed His last.
~ Luke 22:46
So Jesus committed His Spirit to God and the Qur'an says Allah raised him up unto Himself.
Hello Arthra,
According to Bahai sources, what was the purpose of Jesus' pbuh death on the cross?
Following crucifixion and his resurrection from the tomb, could his body be harmed again by anyone?
Christians believe he will return as a Jewish King and rule the World with justice, but you believe he already returned as a Iranian; Baha'u'llah in the 19th Century. Why didn't Christians accept him as their Messiah and King?
On 2:154
And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah: "They are dead." Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not.
In context this is talking about those killed on the battlefield, nothing to do with Jesus pbuh.
On 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
How did First Century Christians understand this?
In speaking of Jesus’ crucifixion and the darkness that covered the land during this event, Africanus found a reference in the writings of Thallus that dealt with this cosmic report. Africanus asserts:
On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.
Julius Africanus objected to Thallus’ rationalization concerning the darkness that fell on the land at the time of the crucifixion because an eclipse could not take place during the time of the full moon, as was the case during the Jewish Passover season. But Wells raises a fair question about this testimony. Africanus only implies that Thallus linked the darkness to Jesus' crucifixion, but we are not specifically told if Jesus is mentioned in Thallus' original history at all.
If this brief statement by Thallus refers to Jesus' crucifixion we can ascertain that (1) the Christian gospel, or at least an account of the crucifixion, was known in the Mediterranean region by the middle of the first century A.D. This brings to mind the presence of Christian teachings in Rome mentioned by Tacitus and by Suetonius. (2) There was a widespread darkness in the land, implied to have taken place during Jesus' crucifixion. (3) Unbelievers offered rationalistic explanations for certain Christian teachings or for supernatural claims not long after their initial proclamation.
If the site of the crucifixion was plunged into darkness and a Huge Earthquake hit as Matthew records, we can surmise people would have fled for fear of impending doom. What then did they actually witness?
Peter writes, "[15] But is was midday, and darkness held fast all Judea; and they were distressed and anxious lest the sun had set, since he was still living. [For] it is written for them: Let not the sun set on one put to death. [16] And someone of them said: 'Give him to drink gall with vinegary wine.' And having made a mixture, they gave to drink. [17] And they fulfilled all things and completed the sins on their own head. [18] But many went around with lamps, thinking that it was night, and they fell. [19] And the Lord screamed out, saying: 'My power, O power, you have forsaken me.' And having said this, he was taken up.
The Gospel of Peter, translated by Raymond Brown
Peter also recalls Jesus pbuh speaking to him just before the crucifixion;
"Come therefore, let us go on with the completion of the will of the incorruptible Father. For behold, those who will bring them judgment are coming, and they will put them to shame. But me they cannot touch. And you, O Peter, shall stand in their midst. Do not be afraid because of your cowardice. Their minds shall be closed, for the invisible one has opposed them."
When he had said those things, I saw him seemingly being seized by them. And I said "What do I see, O Lord? That it is you yourself whom they take, and that you are grasping me? Or who is this one, glad and laughing on the tree? And is it another one whose feet and hands they are striking?"
The Savior said to me, "He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness. But look at him and me."
4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
arthra
Baha'i
Thanks for posting "Muslim-UK" ... of course you realize this is not a debate board.. I think most of us have seen the Muslim views on the subject and I was simply relating the Baha'i view here on the Abrahamic Religions DIR.
But in answer to your first question:
Jesus martyrdom on the cross in our belief was due to the oppressive ecclesiastical hierarchy which felt it's interests were threatened by the claims of Jesus as Messiah;
Your second question:
Following crucifixion and his resurrection from the tomb, could his body be harmed again by anyone?
This is speculative but it is my belief that Joseph of Aramathea and Nicodemus as secret disciples of Jesus secreted the remains to prevent desecration of the body. The Spirit of Jesus was already resurrected as He committed His spirit to God and as the Qur'an describes: Allah raised him up unto Himself. Meaning His spirit.
Your third question:
Christians believe he will return as a Jewish King and rule the World with justice, but you believe he already returned as a Iranian; Baha'u'llah in the 19th Century. Why didn't Christians accept him as their Messiah and King?
The Jews expected a Messiah and I believe it was fulfilled by the appearance of Jesus roughly two thousand years ago. Christians today have a variety views on how the promise of Christ to return will be fulfilled. In the 1830's many Christians in the US known as Millerites believed Christ's promised return would occur around the year 1844 Anno Domine. At the same time in the middle east there was widespread expectation that the Mahdi would appear in the year 1260 AH a thousand lunar years after the disappearance of the twelfth Imam. Baha'is believe both prophecies were fulfilled by the declaration of His Holiness the Bab (Siyyid Ali Muhammad Shirazi) in 1844 AD - 1260 AH. The Bab in turn spoke of One Whom God would make manifest to come after Him and we Baha'is believe that was Baha'u'llah (The Glory of God).
As to why some Christians didn't accept Him it is likely for similar reasons most Jews at the time of Jesus didn't accept Him either and most Muslims did not accept the Bab as fulfilling the prophecy of the Mahdi but God is merciful and we are thankful as I know you are also... my friend.