Universalism, the Bible, and Christianity

[Unveiled Artist]

How can we change our true self? How can I change my race? My heart? My friendship? My creativity?

These things are a part of me as christ is a part of you. There is no either or scenario.

ou don’t need to change, because you are already with God in your own way, just as I am with God in my own way.

I dont share the mentality you have throughout this post. This is a contradiction. I must change in order to believe in your god. I have to drop who I am to settle with what you guys want me to be.

I do not believe god/deities exists
I do not believe and dispise human sacrifice
I cannot see black and white truth
I am not an universalist

I would litterally need to change who I am.

If I said to believe in the Dharma or you are missing out or blind to it, you would need to drop your belief in god because the way out of suffering isnt to kill a human but to help human beings and change our actions that affect our future.

But that is what I believe. I feel that is true for all people but I would never tell you, you are wrong (in so many words) because you dont believe me.

Its a nasty part of christianity I always disagred with. It changes people and their actions have killed thousands because of it. We arent separate from the past. Its happening today in different forms.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Many Christians espouse a simplistic and shallow spiritual paradigm that is consequence/rewards-based. And it really doesn’t serve them. As a member of the clergy, I see that All. The. Time. Far better to throw “the Rules” out the window and concentrate on loving relationships. Which is really what Jesus taught us to do in the first place.

As a clergy member, why do you see others as narow, missing something, wrong, and quote that their opinions doesnt realy serve them??

What is the benefit of separating people unless they believe your truth?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Why set us free, though? We dont believe god for a reason. Unless we are forced, what you're saying doesn't make sense. We would have to be forced rather than suffer consequences for our choices. Why would anyone want to live their whole life in a religion that doesn't help them?

Who said no one tried the gift? I tried it and left because it made me worse inside than better. I felt it in my heart and could not lie to myself and to my friends so I left.

That's like saying you know what's best for the rest of us. I can say that you will go through rebirth until you accept Dharma but it's not about me but about your actions. It's about how you see life and I don't judge what works for you.

You have one gift and I have another. I don't need yours and you don't need mine.

I honestly do not understand that sentiment. People have been killed because the religious murderers felt Pagans weren't receiving their gift. Slavery is built on this concept to. More politics than anything else.

But, really. Why do you feel I will be happy with someone else's gift?

Dharma is my life. Jesus is yours.

What am I missing?

-

@sojourner

This is a cleaner explaination of my views I took from another post of mine.

 

[sojourner]

I read and practiced the bible and accepted the bible is strict on different things such as belief in God and no other and no idolism, at its simplest. It's nice to want everything to flow together. I see that a lot. It helps to understand life when we see things on a single cored.

Then there is life where everyone doesn't need to be one to have its place in the sceme of things. No one is misguided. No one sees things narrow.

I never was an universalist. I remember when I was about seveenteen in the middle of coming out. I was on the computer reading the c/mess about christianity and homosexuality. I came upon bahai and read it until I saw the universalist view. Then I remember just saying that is silly or that doesnt make sense and cut the computer of cold.

Ive always felt people had their uniqueness and their own creativity.

Christianity says there is one god
Hindu says there are many
Buddhism says there are none (that gets people from suffering)
Wicca says there is a goddess
Pagans believe in deities and gods of different definitions


And the list goes on.

How in the world do you universalize these core beliefs? Not abstract themes (love, suffering), but what these foundations have in common. Unversalism says these all go together and lead to one path and one source. I accepted this is not true and that is okay.

Life goes on.

Edited.

I look at it as many two-dimensional perspectives of the same, larger, three-dimensional object. WE each should hold a particular perspective, but all human perspectives are necessary to the whole. No one perspective adequately and completely illustrates the whole, but does give us one particular view of the whole.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I look at it as many two-dimensional perspectives of the same, larger, three-dimensional object. WE each should hold a particular perspective, but all human perspectives are necessary to the whole. No one perspective adequately and completely illustrates the whole, but does give us one particular view of the whole.

There is a way to do this without seeing others as disadvantaged. We have differences in view but what nooggles my nerves is putting those views in cateogories of understanding while at the same time saying we all see the same at its core (universalism).

I accept Christianity (and many other nonuniversalist and there are many) view in relation to universalism because the bible puts people where it feels its stands and doesnt mish mash the two. Outside of that, anyone can reflect the bible off their own views. There is nothing wrong with it. Thats what spirituality is. But, remember, these are beliefs and opinions not facts. No one size fits all.

 

[sojourner]

I just dont have that mentality that people are lacking something as if since they dont believe what you do, they are missing out on a big truth of some sort.

Its a nasty part of christianity (and abrahamic faiths) that I never disagreed with. Its hard to converse when you feel we are missing something we obviously not.

I don’t think you’re lacking anything by not believing as I do. I celebrate the differences. I think you and I share some important spiritual insight.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I don’t think you’re lacking anything by not believing as I do. I celebrate the differences. I think you and I share some important spiritual insight.

Come on, now?

We have different opinions, yes; and, your posts explicitly seperates those who know less than you. I can pick out quotes if you can clarify how it isnt true?

 

[sojourner]

How can we change our true self? How can I change my race? My heart? My friendship? My creativity?

These things are a part of me as christ is a part of you. There is no either or scenario.



I dont share the mentality you have throughout this post. This is a contradiction. I must change in order to believe in your god. I have to drop who I am to settle with what you guys want me to be.

I do not believe god/deities exists
I do not believe and dispise human sacrifice
I cannot see black and white truth
I am not an universalist

I would litterally need to change who I am.

If I said to believe in the Dharma or you are missing out or blind to it, you would need to drop your belief in god because the way out of suffering isnt to kill a human but to help human beings and change our actions that affect our future.

But that is what I believe. I feel that is true for all people but I would never tell you, you are wrong (in so many words) because you dont believe me.

Its a nasty part of christianity I always disagred with. It changes people and their actions have killed thousands because of it. We arent separate from the past. Its happening today in different forms.

I don’t believe the way out of suffering is a human sacrifice. I don’t want you to believe in my God, if that doesn’t work for you. You seem to feel as though I have some need to direct your world view in order to be saved. I don’t. I thought I made that clear; I guess I didn’t?

 

[sojourner]

Why set us free, though? We dont believe god for a reason. Unless we are forced, what you're saying doesn't make sense. We would have to be forced rather than suffer consequences for our choices. Why would anyone want to live their whole life in a religion that doesn't help them?

Who said no one tried the gift? I tried it and left because it made me worse inside than better. I felt it in my heart and could not lie to myself and to my friends so I left.

That's like saying you know what's best for the rest of us. I can say that you will go through rebirth until you accept Dharma but it's not about me but about your actions. It's about how you see life and I don't judge what works for you.

You have one gift and I have another. I don't need yours and you don't need mine.

I honestly do not understand that sentiment. People have been killed because the religious murderers felt Pagans weren't receiving their gift. Slavery is built on this concept to. More politics than anything else.

But, really. Why do you feel I will be happy with someone else's gift?

Dharma is my life. Jesus is yours.

What am I missing?

-

@sojourner

This is a cleaner explaination of my views I took from another post of mine.

Thanks. I think that’s great for you.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I don’t believe the way out of suffering is a human sacrifice. I don’t want you to believe in my God, if that doesn’t work for you. You seem to feel as though I have some need to direct your world view in order to be saved. I don’t. I thought I made that clear; I guess I didn’t?

Its in your posts. You dont have to say it verbatum but its there. It doesnt need to be negative. Thats just, well, how you speak.

Are you christian? Human sacrifice is the foundation of christian faith.

 

[sojourner]

There is a way to do this without seeing others as disadvantaged. We have differences in view but what nooggles my nerves is putting those views in cateogories of understanding while at the same time saying we all see the same at its core (universalism).

I accept Christianity (and many other nonuniversalist and there are many) view in relation to universalism because the bible puts people where it feels its stands and doesnt mish mash the two. Outside of that, anyone can reflect the bible off their own views. There is nothing wrong with it. Thats what spirituality is. But, remember, these are beliefs and opinions not facts. No one size fits all.

I think we DO all see the same at the core. We all embrace life, and we all embrace right relationship, yes? That’s really all Jesus taught, and, if I’m not mistaken, isn’t that what Dharma is all about?

 

[sojourner]

Come on, now?

We have different opinions, yes; and, your posts explicitly seperates those who know less than you. I can pick out quotes if you can clarify how it isnt true?

Where did I say anything about “knowing less than me?”

 

[sojourner]

Its in your posts. You dont have to say it verbatum but its there. It doesnt need to be negative. Thats just, well, how you speak.

Are you christian? Human sacrifice is the foundation of christian faith.

No. It really isn’t. At least not for me and others in my community. Love is the foundation of the faith. Jesus’ sacrifice was incidental. I don’t buy into Substitutionary Atonement. At all.


I’m really scratching my head here, because your replies simply aren’t jibing with what I believe I’m posting. I don’t know if I’m not saying it right, or if you’re misinterpreting something?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I think we DO all see the same at the core. We all embrace life, and we all embrace right relationship, yes? That’s really all Jesus taught, and, if I’m not mistaken, isn’t that what Dharma is all about?

Jesus taught that all who believed will have eternal life (be with god) and all those who reject, will not. He also said that those who do not believe in the lord (his) god will not have life. Those who do not believe in his name, would not know god. God saves those who want to be saved not all people.

The Dharma is about continuum not black and white. It says we are on a continuous life after another. While we dont understand fully life and death now, in the future we will and then we will die. Its a cycle affect. So, instead of you being wrong (or seeing things narrow or so have you), its more youre in training and eventually you will see the way. Its a self revelation from internal means. Its not universalist but highly more patient than christianity.

As for sects within Buddhism it varies. Some more political than others.

Christianity isnt a universalist faith. Each individual christian has their own interpretations (as do Buddhist) but going off history, the bible itself, and denominational creeds both protestant and lurtigical religions (lutheran, prespytarian, etc) its totaly black and white. Some to its extreme, JW and others to a lesser extreme (which I cant think of a denomi thats universalist in its approach).

 

[sojourner]

Jesus taught that all who believed will have eternal life (be with god) and all those who reject, will not. He also said that those who do not believe in the lord (his) god will not have life

Believe what? Way? Truth? Life? That’s not a judgment, that’s just How It Is. if we find our path, embrace our truth and grab onto life, we will find infinity. If we don’t, we won’t. God is life, so, if you don’t grab onto life, you won’t have it. Only if we let go the illusion will we find true life. That’s just wisdom.

So, instead of you being wrong (or seeing things narrow or so have you), its more youre in training and eventually you will see the way. Its a self revelation from internal means. Its not universalist but highly more patient than christianity

Yes, that’s what I think too.

Christianity isnt a universalist faith

I believe it is.

going off history, the bible itself, and denominational creeds both protestant and lurtigical religions (lutheran, prespytarian, etc) its totaly black and white

I believe that many have sold spirituality short. I’ve been privy to several traditions in a professional capacity, and I just don’t see it that way at their deepest levels. The fight I find is getting the masses to feed off the bread of life, rather than the kind that molds. Many just don’t want to go there. They’d rather not let go their illusions.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Believe what? Way? Truth? Life? That’s not a judgment, that’s just How It Is. if we find our path, embrace our truth and grab onto life, we will find infinity. If we don’t, we won’t. God is life, so, if you don’t grab onto life, you won’t have it. Only if we let go the illusion will we find true life. That’s just wisdom.

Its very blunt: whoever believes will have eternal life. The context is in the gospels.

I see what you mean. Of course, it doesnt apply to all people just those who believe. I see god as life but I dont use god because I dont believe in a creator. But its the only word people know..so I can kinda get that but if someone doesnt grab onto how you see god, what would happen?

Im playing devils advocate by referring to what you havent said based on what you said. If someone doesnt grab on, then what?

Yes, that’s what I think too.

Yeah. In this case its rebirth. So, you will come to earth (lack of better words) and continue to live in this life until you actualy die. There is no god.

I believe it is.

How so?

Can you find distinct verses from religions you know that coinside with each other at their foundations?

Not abstract things like love and peace but the foundation which these things are based.

I believe that many have sold spirituality short. I’ve been privy to several traditions in a professional capacity, and I just don’t see it that way at their deepest levels. The fight I find is getting the masses to feed off the bread of life, rather than the kind that molds. Many just don’t want to go there. They

Shrugs. The type that molds?

I see them at their deepest levels even though I disagree with them. Im very empathic in those regards.

 

[sojourner]

I see what you mean. Of course, it doesnt apply to all people just those who believe. I see god as life but I dont use god because I dont believe in a creator. But its the only word people know..so I can kinda get that but if someone doesnt grab onto how you see god, what would happen?

Im playing devils advocate by referring to what you havent said based on what you said. If someone doesnt grab on, then what?

Again, belief isn’t a head thing. It’s not agreeing with tenets or ideas. Belief is a deep knowing of the truth of a thing. I have hope that, eventually, all will learn to grab not life. Until then, we keep cycling, as you say.

Yeah. In this case its rebirth. So, you will come to earth (lack of better words) and continue to live in this life until you actualy die. There is no god.

Well, there’s no particular “being.” I don’t believe God is a being. I believe God is being, itself. We cycle until we learn to be.

How so?

Can you find distinct verses from religions you know that coinside with each other at their foundations?

I think the tenets of love life and foster right relationships (love God/neighbor) mesh with any religion.

Shrugs. The type that molds?

People are more interested in playing in the shallow end of laying it safe than they are in diving dangerously into the deep end.

I see them at their deepest levels even though I disagree with them

Ok.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Again, belief isn’t a head thing. It’s not agreeing with tenets or ideas. Belief is a deep knowing of the truth of a thing. I have hope that, eventually, all will learn to grab not life. Until then, we keep cycling, as you say.

I reread it, I didnt see I said it was a head thing. What youre talking about is more conviction not belief. I believe that the Eucharist is jesus christ. I believe in The Dharma. I put my conviction in Dharmic practice.

Well, there’s no particular “being.” I don’t believe God is a being. I believe God is being, itself. We cycle until we learn to be.

What do you mean by learn to be?

I think the tenets of love life and foster right relationships (love God/neighbor) mesh with any religion.

The foundation of love between all faiths are different; therefore, their definitions of love are different.

Christian love is sacrifice. You sacrifice self in order to help others as christ as helped you (as in christians). Without sacrifice: life, death, resurrection, there is no love. Love is defined by christ not by mindn or brain.

The Dharma, love develops from the mind. The mind controls what we experience by heart. We have no soul that experiences love. It just is. The foundation between Dharma and Scripture are totaly different, so the love is defined differently.

That doesnt make one worse than the other. Just different.

People are more interested in playing in the shallow end of laying it safe than they are in diving dangerously into the deep end.

Some people.

 

[sojourner]

What do you mean by learn to be?

Learning to live out of the truth of who we really are.

Christian love is sacrifice.

Christian love is self-sacrificial, or selfless. That is, it places the welfare of the other above the welfare of the self. Love is unconditional. But I wouldn’t say that “love is sacrifice.”

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Christian love is self-sacrificial, or selfless. That is, it places the welfare of the other above the welfare of the self. Love is unconditional. But I wouldn’t say that “love is sacrifice.”

In the Gospels, Jesus appeals to self-interest as the motivation for "Christian love." He repeatedly emphasizes that people who do as he says will be rewarded and those who don't will be punished.