crystalonyx
Well-Known Member
"Surely god is good"
There is no universal law that says this must be so.
There is no universal law that says this must be so.
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Universal Salvation?
- Thread starter Elvendon
- Start date
Wandered Off
Sporadic Driveby Member
I can see how that might fit with what little I know of Mormon theology - specifically the part where we existed before incarnation, if anything of that existence carries forward. Coincidentally, it also fits with Calvinism's denial of free will in that faith is a "gift from God." I think people are predisposed to process information a certain way, kind of like being predisposed to left-handedness.
Heneni
Miss Independent
If you believe that you chose god when you said the 'jesus come into my heart prayer', you cant believe in universal salvation, since not everybody else is doing it!
If you believe that god is a genie in a bottle, you wouldnt want everybody else to cash in as much as you are, hence universal salvation would not be true.
If you dont want to offend anyone you would want to believe universal salvation is true.
How much, of what WE want, is influencing our beliefs regarding universal salvation to be true or not?
Lets look at the word SALVATION....it means you need to be saved. Firstly a great deal of people dont believe they need salvation. Secondly a great deal of people who think they are saved, have no idea what from! Wouldnt it be ironic if the massas stand before god with no idea why they are there. God would have to fill them in...hey i saved you! And what would their response be? Oh...i didnt realise i needed saving.
Perhaps before we debate whether everyone is saved, we should consider what god came to save us for in the first place. If we understand that, it should be easy to determine whether everyone is saved.
If god came to save us, it means we were all doomed. NOT because of gods inadequacy, but because we got ourselves in a mess. It would be really odd, if god got us into this mess, and then comes to save us out of the mess he put us in.
But what is this mess we got ourselves into? Why is salvation so great? What is the big deal? For me it is not hard to understand the big deal. I know i messed up, and i know how, and i know that if it wasnt for him, id be unable to return to heaven.
Salvation is not about numbers, its about your personal story and history with god almighty.
Furthermore...I have tried but find it very hard, to believe that god is willing to forgive all humans their error, yet have no such intention with satan. If i want to believe in universal salvation, id have to believe that god would give satan a second chance as well. It would seem unfair, saving almost all of mankind and keep satan out of that salvation. Perhaps god is able to reinstate satan, but only if he realises his error, since if he doesnt, he is able to do it again. And the same goes for all humans. There is no point in us all going to heaven, and continuing our rebellion there. We would be most gratefull that we are 'saved' but would not have the character to sustain is in heaven, without getting ourselves into the same mess again.
From that perspective i dont think that everyone is saved, until such time that everyone has a change in character that would be able to sustain them in heaven. It also makes sense to me then, why we have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Its not a matter to be taken lightly since it is indeed a matter of life or death.
Heneni
If you believe that god is a genie in a bottle, you wouldnt want everybody else to cash in as much as you are, hence universal salvation would not be true.
If you dont want to offend anyone you would want to believe universal salvation is true.
How much, of what WE want, is influencing our beliefs regarding universal salvation to be true or not?
Lets look at the word SALVATION....it means you need to be saved. Firstly a great deal of people dont believe they need salvation. Secondly a great deal of people who think they are saved, have no idea what from! Wouldnt it be ironic if the massas stand before god with no idea why they are there. God would have to fill them in...hey i saved you! And what would their response be? Oh...i didnt realise i needed saving.
Perhaps before we debate whether everyone is saved, we should consider what god came to save us for in the first place. If we understand that, it should be easy to determine whether everyone is saved.
If god came to save us, it means we were all doomed. NOT because of gods inadequacy, but because we got ourselves in a mess. It would be really odd, if god got us into this mess, and then comes to save us out of the mess he put us in.
But what is this mess we got ourselves into? Why is salvation so great? What is the big deal? For me it is not hard to understand the big deal. I know i messed up, and i know how, and i know that if it wasnt for him, id be unable to return to heaven.
Salvation is not about numbers, its about your personal story and history with god almighty.
Furthermore...I have tried but find it very hard, to believe that god is willing to forgive all humans their error, yet have no such intention with satan. If i want to believe in universal salvation, id have to believe that god would give satan a second chance as well. It would seem unfair, saving almost all of mankind and keep satan out of that salvation. Perhaps god is able to reinstate satan, but only if he realises his error, since if he doesnt, he is able to do it again. And the same goes for all humans. There is no point in us all going to heaven, and continuing our rebellion there. We would be most gratefull that we are 'saved' but would not have the character to sustain is in heaven, without getting ourselves into the same mess again.
From that perspective i dont think that everyone is saved, until such time that everyone has a change in character that would be able to sustain them in heaven. It also makes sense to me then, why we have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Its not a matter to be taken lightly since it is indeed a matter of life or death.
Heneni
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I hadn't thought of it in that light before, but you could have a point.
Oh dear! NO! I can see why, with a limited knowledge of Mormonism, you might think that, but I can assure you our beliefs could not possible be further removed from Calvinism. The thing about Mormonism is that we don't believe our ultimate "fate" is cast in concrete at the moment of death. Death is not the final curtain to us; it's more like an intermission. Learning and growing and free will continue between the time a person dies and the time he is resurrected. By the time the any of us stand before God to be judged, we will all have more than ample time to gain a true understanding of Him and what He expects of us, and the vast majority will end up making the choice that will lead to salvation. I've heard it said that we have the biggest heaven and the littlest hell of any Christian denomination, and that's a distinction I love to claim.
Just out of curiosity, have you ever heard of "the God gene"?
Muffled
Jesus in me
That is not necessarily salvation. A person must bow down to the authority of Jesus whether they are saved or not. They have no other choice. As for confession, that need not be voluntary either since the record is in the book and there is no escaping it. This all takes place at the judgement seat of course:
Rom 11:10 But thou, why dost thou judge thy brother? or thou again, why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgmentseat of God.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I guess it all depends on how you define salvation. It's really hard for me to imagine billions of people bowing to Jesus and confessing that He is the Christ and then Him saying, "Thank you all very much. Hell's that-a-way." Doesn't that seem just a little out of character for Jesus to you?
Muffled
Jesus in me
The devil also acknolwedges that Jesus is the Christ and recognizes His authority. Is he saved too?
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
So you see the billions who bow down to Him at the Last Judgment as being on par with the devil? If they are, no, I don't believe they would be saved. I guess I just see God as more merciful than you do and can't imagine Him damning billions of His own children to an eternity of suffering. I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree on this point.
Heneni
Miss Independent
Hello Muffled. I believe that satan was cast of heaven because he rejected that which created him and therefore wanted to be seperated from god, hence god gave him what he wanted.
I dont hink he is saved, if we believe that saved means returning to god, but i still hope that somehow god could make a way for satan, but i believe that depends on satan turning from his error. It might not happen in this age, but perhaps in ages to come, even after all of this has 'ended'.
It is clear from what happened in heaven, which we can call the great rebellion, that this event caused much suffering and heartache for those who rebelled. I dont think god would like that to happen again, for our own good, hence i dont believe universal salvation is possible unless the character of the person ending up in heaven is of such sorts that it will be able to keep heaven a peacefull place.
The thought has occured to me, that perhaps what we think is eternal damnation, is a cycle of hopelessness and helplessness without god, and eventually surely and hopefully that can also lead to the correction of error.
If god throws us a life line and we dont take it, god cant save us, we have to take the rope! Does everyone even care for the rope?
What would be the point of saving someone who does not believe they need saving? I also believe that the choice for or against christ as our saviour was made the day he was crucified.
Heneni
Wandered Off
Sporadic Driveby Member
Heh! Sorry I wasn't clear. I didn't mean to imply that the two belief systems were similar. It's a 'coincidence' at best that you may have that in common, if at all.
I have. That could be part of the predisposition. I think Sunstone or someone started a thread on that a while back.
yearningknight
Yearningknight
I think that this is nonsense for I believe that there is no evil nor sin nor good either. I don't think that the Christians should accept this because it would make them hypocrytical in my eyes.
A
angellous_evangellous
Guest
Can you elaborate on this? It doesn't make any sense to me as it is...
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I didn't choose God. God chose me.
God isn't a genie in a bottle. That's the kind of thinking that leads to a myopic view of salvation. God is life. If the message is that life prevails over death, then God will always prevail. Everywhere.
If God is truth, then, at some point, we will be faced with that truth and held accountable to it. Then, surely, everyone will know exactly what it means to choose life.
God came to save us for God's Self. And God always gets God's way. No matter how long it takes.
Salvation isn't about numbers, it's about humanity being reconciled with Divinity.
God's got eternity for us to work out our faith. And God always waits until...
spiritually inclined
Active Member
I do not claim to know what form the afterlife will take. I can only go by my hunches based on various levels of reasoning and intuiting.
I do not believe that Satan is a literal being, so I don't confront the issue of whether Satan and his minions will be saved. To me, that is purely metaphorical or mythological. Certainly many people claim having contact with negative spiritual entities. Assuming for a moment that these claims are as they say, these entities do not necessarily have to be Satan or demons. They could be ghosts or any number of other explanations. (That is why we can never be completely sure of our interpretation of such events.)
There is the issue of the salvation (or forgiveness and reconciliation with God) of human beings. Do I believe that the Bible gives me a literal or reliable idea about the afterlife? Not at all. Yet various metaphors are used to describe the afterlife: gnashing of teeth, fire, darkness. Fire and darkness are opposites, yet both are used to describe hell. I conclude that such images are metaphors. There are various metaphors for salvation, the two most appealing to me being the parable of the Prodigal Son and the the one lost sheep. Salvation and heaven are described as a rest, communion with God and one another, and so forth.
Though I do not accept the Bible as a literal or fully reliable account, I do explore its images and descriptions as a Chrstian because they help me understand my own experience of God. I have experienced God not as something out there but as something within me, a guiding force, a force that can even profoundly communicate with me. (I had a mystical experience.) Not only did I experience a message but a profound and deep encompassing love. There was noting to forgive because all was already forgiven.
That doesn't mean I don't have sins to work on. I do. But the forgiveness of God is already there. This sounds to me a lot like the Prodigal Son. The father's love for his son never wavers, yet he patiently waits for his son to return to him and turn away from his wasteful and selfish lifestyle. This reminds me of the shepherd that will leave 99 sheep to find the one lost sheep. He never needs to forgive the sheep. He simply wants to save the sheep out of his love.
Theoretically, if God is an entity that exists outside of time, perhaps this is why I experienced forgiveness not as a singular event in time, but an eternal presence. God IS love! God IS forgiveness.
This has been my experience of what I call God, and I have found it to be a healing and beautiful thing that has changed me in profound and good ways, and many others could speak of this as well. This is salvation to me, a salvation I work out, and many could speak of similar experiences.
As for what the Bible teaches about universal salvation in the afterlife, that is a complex matter because there is so much to be studied to understand the literary, cultural, and historical context of the scriptures, and the scriptures are not always consistent with one another. Also, I'm not a theologian! (Though I love studying theology.) That being said, I think there is more support for the possibility of universal salvation in the Bible than most fundamentalists and evangelicals claim.
Now we go on. I will assume for a moment that the afterlife continues in an individualized state and that God is an outside entity as well as an internal one, an entity of this pure, unconditional and all encompassing love I have personally experienced. I cannot possibly imagine that a being of this great love and grace I have felt to the core of my soul could condemn someone forever.
Indeed, I don't belive that God condemns anyone, but that our own actions condemn us when we turn from the way, the truth, and the life, in whatever form we find it, those things of which Christ was an embodiment. Existing outside of time, theoretically, God's forgiveness is already here; we simply need to embrace it, and God has an eternity in which to let that process unfold. That is my idea of how this would theoretically work, based on what I have experienced. God's love will always embrace the lost sheep and the Prodigal Son, no matter how long it takes.
James
I do not believe that Satan is a literal being, so I don't confront the issue of whether Satan and his minions will be saved. To me, that is purely metaphorical or mythological. Certainly many people claim having contact with negative spiritual entities. Assuming for a moment that these claims are as they say, these entities do not necessarily have to be Satan or demons. They could be ghosts or any number of other explanations. (That is why we can never be completely sure of our interpretation of such events.)
There is the issue of the salvation (or forgiveness and reconciliation with God) of human beings. Do I believe that the Bible gives me a literal or reliable idea about the afterlife? Not at all. Yet various metaphors are used to describe the afterlife: gnashing of teeth, fire, darkness. Fire and darkness are opposites, yet both are used to describe hell. I conclude that such images are metaphors. There are various metaphors for salvation, the two most appealing to me being the parable of the Prodigal Son and the the one lost sheep. Salvation and heaven are described as a rest, communion with God and one another, and so forth.
Though I do not accept the Bible as a literal or fully reliable account, I do explore its images and descriptions as a Chrstian because they help me understand my own experience of God. I have experienced God not as something out there but as something within me, a guiding force, a force that can even profoundly communicate with me. (I had a mystical experience.) Not only did I experience a message but a profound and deep encompassing love. There was noting to forgive because all was already forgiven.
That doesn't mean I don't have sins to work on. I do. But the forgiveness of God is already there. This sounds to me a lot like the Prodigal Son. The father's love for his son never wavers, yet he patiently waits for his son to return to him and turn away from his wasteful and selfish lifestyle. This reminds me of the shepherd that will leave 99 sheep to find the one lost sheep. He never needs to forgive the sheep. He simply wants to save the sheep out of his love.
Theoretically, if God is an entity that exists outside of time, perhaps this is why I experienced forgiveness not as a singular event in time, but an eternal presence. God IS love! God IS forgiveness.
This has been my experience of what I call God, and I have found it to be a healing and beautiful thing that has changed me in profound and good ways, and many others could speak of this as well. This is salvation to me, a salvation I work out, and many could speak of similar experiences.
As for what the Bible teaches about universal salvation in the afterlife, that is a complex matter because there is so much to be studied to understand the literary, cultural, and historical context of the scriptures, and the scriptures are not always consistent with one another. Also, I'm not a theologian! (Though I love studying theology.) That being said, I think there is more support for the possibility of universal salvation in the Bible than most fundamentalists and evangelicals claim.
Now we go on. I will assume for a moment that the afterlife continues in an individualized state and that God is an outside entity as well as an internal one, an entity of this pure, unconditional and all encompassing love I have personally experienced. I cannot possibly imagine that a being of this great love and grace I have felt to the core of my soul could condemn someone forever.
Indeed, I don't belive that God condemns anyone, but that our own actions condemn us when we turn from the way, the truth, and the life, in whatever form we find it, those things of which Christ was an embodiment. Existing outside of time, theoretically, God's forgiveness is already here; we simply need to embrace it, and God has an eternity in which to let that process unfold. That is my idea of how this would theoretically work, based on what I have experienced. God's love will always embrace the lost sheep and the Prodigal Son, no matter how long it takes.
James
logician
Well-Known Member
The effective result is the same, even if your theory is true, god punishes the wicked.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
How so?
logician
Well-Known Member
Simple, whether a supposed god directly punishes the "wicked", or sets up a situation where the "wicked" get punished, the result is the same.
Heneni
Miss Independent
Hello
Isnt being seperated from god here on earth punishment? Hence we are all punished but those that believe in Jesus has a way of returning to the father.
I think that the wicked are punished already, condemned already for not believing in jesus christ to save them, they remain seperated from god and their eyes blinded to the truth of god. Jesus came to save the wicked but if the wicked loved the darkness more than they loved the light they condemned themselves. Hence all the wicked has to look forward to is continual seperation from god who loves and lives in the light.
Heneni
Isnt being seperated from god here on earth punishment? Hence we are all punished but those that believe in Jesus has a way of returning to the father.
I think that the wicked are punished already, condemned already for not believing in jesus christ to save them, they remain seperated from god and their eyes blinded to the truth of god. Jesus came to save the wicked but if the wicked loved the darkness more than they loved the light they condemned themselves. Hence all the wicked has to look forward to is continual seperation from god who loves and lives in the light.
Heneni
logician
Well-Known Member
NO, since I don't believe in any god concepts, I could not by definition be punished.
Wandered Off
Sporadic Driveby Member
Wouldn't that mean we have to accept on faith that we're being punished?