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Understanding tragedies

Levite

Higher and Higher
Sounds kind of like the 5th dimension guy from MIB3. He could see the past, present, and future, as well as all outcomes of every choice made, but sometimes chose only to view the outcomes he liked best, hoping that was the choice made.

Haven't seen it yet. But from what you describe, I think my friend would tell you that the difference is that God doesn't contract his omniscience to focus on only the outcomes He likes best, but only away from the knowledge of which outcome will be the one that becomes the "dominant" track of reality.
 

yoheisato

Member
While Judaism has historically been quite firm on embracing both human free will and divine omniscience, there has actually been very little agreement amongst Jewish authorities about precisely how to reconcile those two ideas. Or, really, about any questions....

Of the various answers that have been proposed, the one that I feel is most compelling is that omniscience is a description of capability, not a description of choice. In other words, God is capable of knowing all, but God chooses not to know certain things-- those things being the actions resulting from human free will. I think of it as sort of the ultimate, supernal version of willing suspension of disbelief as we experience it when watching a play or a movie.

One of my best friends, who also likes this answer, says he envisions it as God having access to the full spectrum of potential outcomes of all choices: like seeing a massive flowchart of quantum realities splitting off of each minute possible choice or act that occurs in the universe. But God chooses to "hide" from Himself which of these outcomes will become the "dominant" track of our reality until after the choices have been made. I don't know if I envision it precisely in that way, but it's an interesting idea, I think.

I am aware, of course, that this answer is, in its way, just as flawed as any other answer. But my guess is that the true reconciliation of these things is a mystery unlikely to be solved while we exist on this plane of being. So for me, I am satisfied picking the answer that gets me through the night, so to speak.

As for randomness, I think random natural events are random within the created universe, but I tend to believe that God is capable of seeing pattern in them, or simply chooses to be aware of their outcomes. I think the self-contraction of His omniscience is essentially the supernal form of the gift of free will, but doesn't extend past human free will.

I mean no offense, but to be honest, I least expected to reach agreements with or find inspirations in someone from judaism, but you really turned my view upside down. A BIG THANK YOU !!

Anyway, being omnipotent, but not choosing to stop tragedies (at least, short-term, apparent ones), and being omniscient, but not choosing to know sad consequences of free will by creatures, hmm..., I still cannot worship that kind of god passionately, well, but it's my business, I guess. I just go my own way.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
When a good thing happens, people praise god. When a bad thing happens, people pray to god for help.

i guess it depends on whether you believe God is in control of everything that happens. Personally I do not believe that. The holy bible does not paint that picture of God. it actually implies the opposite is true. The world is in the power of Satan the devil....under his influence, mankind themselves are the cause of the badness in the world.

And that makes so much more sense to me because I would find it very hard to imagine that a loving God could be the cause of so much suffering and misery...it is a contradiction.

Let's say that Italy and Poland go on a war. Italian christians pray god for victory. Polish christians pray to the same god for victory.
Surely, something is wrong here and there?

on this point we would need to ask why 'christians' are going to war in the first place. If a person was trully following Christ, they would not be going to war for a start...they would rather be learning to 'love their enemies' as Christ taught us.

So the logical conclusion is that God would not be involved in such wars of that nations. To him, all mankind are equal and we are all brothers and sisters. He does not show partiality to any nation.... In fact, the holy bible tells us to keep out of politics and not get involved.
 
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yoheisato

Member
Pegg, thank you so much for inspiring replies. While I don't agree with the concept, it does make sense even to me. Thank you so much.

So, it seems that free will is that important, more important than perfect world without tragedies, then... I guess this question is similar to questions like:

Do you want to live happy and ignorant, or do you want to know the truth?

Do you want to live as a free wild animal, or do you want to live as a domestic pet with food guaranteed?

A bit of romanticism and exaggeration here, maybe, but anyway... Very curious... I'd like to think about it.
 

yoheisato

Member
But why can't god make us a little bit better, create this race just a little bit better from the beginning so that we all stay like kind, good-hearted brothers while still allowing room for free will? Surely, that should have been achievable? Why did he have to make snake and the apple? Why...? And look at the consequence of the snake and the apple today... Surely, we are talking nonsense here just to try so, so hard to find sense in something that fundamentally doesn't make sense?
 

Rakhel

Well-Known Member
But why can't god make us a little bit better, create this race just a little bit better from the beginning so that we all stay like kind, good-hearted brothers while still allowing room for free will? Surely, that should have been achievable? Why did he have to make snake and the apple? Why...? And look at the consequence of the snake and the apple today... Surely, we are talking nonsense here just to try so, so hard to find sense in something that fundamentally doesn't make sense?
Who says he's done?
 

Tarheeler

Argumentative Curmudgeon
Premium Member
I thought god created everything. Am I wrong here?

What does creation have to do with people and society evolving?

Simply put, there is no reason to believe that what we are right now is what we are going to end up being. Just look at human society over the last 4000 years; we have grown and now hold many things that were once seen as normal and right to be wrong.

Many people, myself included, see humanity as an ongoing process; as we advance, our ideas and how we see the world also advance. Eventually, God willing, we will get to the point that we exactly what we were always meant to be and we will see the messianic age come to be.
 

yoheisato

Member
What does creation have to do with people and society evolving?

Simply put, there is no reason to believe that what we are right now is what we are going to end up being. Just look at human society over the last 4000 years; we have grown and now hold many things that were once seen as normal and right to be wrong.

Many people, myself included, see humanity as an ongoing process; as we advance, our ideas and how we see the world also advance. Eventually, God willing, we will get to the point that we exactly what we were always meant to be and we will see the messianic age come to be.

In other words, process doesn't matter, and result is what counts? I care for humanity. I feel for those who were tortured to death wrongly during witch-hunting, for example.
 

Tarheeler

Argumentative Curmudgeon
Premium Member
In other words, process doesn't matter, and result is what counts? I care for humanity. I feel for those who were tortured to death wrongly during witch-hunting, for example.

Nice strawman! :yes:

I really don't see how you got that from my post.
 

Rakhel

Well-Known Member
In other words, process doesn't matter, and result is what counts? I care for humanity. I feel for those who were tortured to death wrongly during witch-hunting, for example.
And you are making seem that you don't think those who believe in a god do care about humanity. That because the bible okays it, we must too. That is a very narrow-minded view.
 

Rakhel

Well-Known Member
Mankind: Genesis 1:26-27, 2:7, 2:21-22
Tree: Genesis 2:9
Snake: Genesis 3:1

If I am wrong, let me ask you who else, in the biblical context, created these if not god?
And yet, evolution still happens. So you are saying what exactly?
 

yoheisato

Member
Nice strawman! :yes:

I really don't see how you got that from my post.

Maybe you skipped the flow of the discussion. My response is also taking into consideration this comment.

But why can't god make us a little bit better, create this race just a little bit better from the beginning so that we all stay like kind, good-hearted brothers while still allowing room for free will? Surely, that should have been achievable? Why did he have to make snake and the apple? Why...? And look at the consequence of the snake and the apple today...
 

Tarheeler

Argumentative Curmudgeon
Premium Member
Maybe you skipped the flow of the discussion. My response is also taking into consideration this comment.

Nope, I didn't miss the flow of the discussion. I responded to a specific question you asked.

If I had want to respond to your other statements, I would have.
 

yoheisato

Member
And you are making seem that you don't think those who believe in a god do care about humanity. That because the bible okays it, we must too. That is a very narrow-minded view.

I believe those who believe in the biblical god also care about humanity, in general.

In summary, my question is basically this:

If god is omnipotent, why can he not have created a good-natured mankind to begin with while still allowing enough room for free will? Or why can he not give mankind a good environment in which mankind can grow in a good way even with their free will?

This is the thing that I do not understand. And as long as I don't understand it, it only seems to me that mankind was made faulty because god is not omnipotent, or god is perverted enough to enjoy our tragedy, or god is not responsible and just does not care about the consequence (i.e. tragedies happened and happening) of his creation, etc.

I want to emphasize that I am not trying to attack people with biblical faith. I am trying to understand this concept in a reasonable way. I am looking for inspirations or corrections for my ignorance or misunderstanding, if any.
 

Rakhel

Well-Known Member
I believe those who believe in the biblical god also care about humanity, in general.

In summary, my question is basically this:

If god is omnipotent, why can he not have created a good-natured mankind to begin with while still allowing enough room for free will? Or why can he not give mankind a good environment in which mankind can grow in a good way even with their free will?

This is the thing that I do not understand. And as long as I don't understand it, it only seems to me that mankind was made faulty because god is not omnipotent, or god is perverted enough to enjoy our tragedy, or god is not responsible and just does not care about the consequence (i.e. tragedies happened and happening) of his creation, etc.

I want to emphasize that I am not trying to attack people with biblical faith. I am trying to understand this concept in a reasonable way. I am looking for inspirations or corrections for my ignorance or misunderstanding, if any.
But he did. He made mankind good-natured and gave them free-will to choose to be good-natured. It is not his fault that certain men chose not to be.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Pegg, thank you so much for inspiring replies. While I don't agree with the concept, it does make sense even to me. Thank you so much.

So, it seems that free will is that important, more important than perfect world without tragedies, then... I guess this question is similar to questions like:

Do you want to live happy and ignorant, or do you want to know the truth?

Do you want to live as a free wild animal, or do you want to live as a domestic pet with food guaranteed?

A bit of romanticism and exaggeration here, maybe, but anyway... Very curious... I'd like to think about it.

you know, we are the only creations on earth that actually have free will. We are different to the animals because the scriptures say we were created 'in Gods image'

that image includes the ability to be free moral agents who make decisions. animals on the other hand live by instincts which tell them what they will do with their life, where they will live, what they will eat, when they will reproduce, where they will migrate to and so on.

We get to choose all that. But the catch is that he also gave us a conscience so that we would know right from wrong and he expects us to use it to guide our actions. When we do something against Gods standards, our conscience condemns us so that we feel guilty or bad over what we've done. So while we have free will, it is not without limits...unfortunately we tend to bend the limits and step outside of them which in turn causes us a lot of problems and suffering.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
But why can't god make us a little bit better, create this race just a little bit better from the beginning so that we all stay like kind, good-hearted brothers while still allowing room for free will? Surely, that should have been achievable? Why did he have to make snake and the apple? Why...? And look at the consequence of the snake and the apple today... Surely, we are talking nonsense here just to try so, so hard to find sense in something that fundamentally doesn't make sense?

He gave mankind a perfect beginning. He put them in a beautiful garden, he made them flawless. They had the opportunity to live forever on the earth and spread the boarders of paradise around the globe...that was their prospect but it was dependent on their obedience to God.


As a way for them to exercise their obedience, he gave them one law...“From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction, but as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.” (Genesis 2:16, 17)

Obeying this one law was all that was required for them because their conscience was perfectly tuned to Gods way of thinking and therefore they had no need for any other laws.

with regard to the snake, it wasnt really a talking snake...the scriptures reveal that one of the angels of heaven began to envy Gods position and the devotion he received from his intelligent creations. That angel is called 'devil and satan' in the scriptures. It was he who made it appear the snake was talking to Eve...he wanted her to break Gods law because he knew what it would mean for them. They became subject to sin and death and not only that, but they also came under the authority of Satan the devil who's goal is to keep mankind sinning against God.

But in all that has happened, God has made a way to correct things so that we may have the opportunity to live the life our first parents lost. Right back in the garden of Eden God promised to send a 'seed' who would crush the head of the serpent Satan, and when he is gone, those of mankind who wish to live under Gods rulership will have the opportunity to do so. But they can only do so if they commit to maintain Gods high moral standards...thereby eliminating suffering from the world.
 
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