Understanding the bible

[cardero]

That is the point why would that god allow those imperfect humans to screw it up?

If anyone remembers, we as humans, are already judged imperfect (by God) after chapter 5 of the book of Genesis (page 12 by my standard Bible). What could possibly be the chances of us as a society, to continue taking or living The Bible seriously in our present lives when this specific book has exchanged so many imperfect hands and perspectives over the centuries?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

If anyone remembers, we as humans, are already judged imperfect (by God) after chapter 5 of the book of Genesis (page 12 by my standard Bible). What could possibly be the chances of us as a society, to continue taking or living The Bible seriously in our present lives when this specific book has exchanged so many imperfect hands and perspectives over the centuries?

Yeah, the whole imperfect thing is why we needed Jesus Christ in the first place.

I think that the fact that we can locate edits and determine what to do with them demonstrates reliability. If we simply thought that it had been edited and could not determine where, then we would have to simply live with the uneasy feeling of not know what is authoritative and what is not. However, the modern translations of the Bible are translations of pretty reliable MSS.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Read it again Lycan... it shows God's underlying MO: Use that which is faulty so that the real treasure stands out. God doesn't want you to judge by outward appearances, but by what is on the inside.

The pyramids of Egypt stand out not because of their size... we do bigger and better now, but because of the limited understanding and resouces that the Egyptians had of engineering.

John 13:34 "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

As evidenced on this forum, there are many who "claim" to be Christian and do not live up to this ideal... I am probably one of the worst! But as you see the love in me and in other Christians, you can see that there is indeed a God. At least, I can.

 

[cardero]

That is the paradox. However, the only alternative would be for GOD to force his words on to humanity. The revelation would be the only thing in the cosmos that is entirely beyond dispute, and no person would be able to resist and live a free life. We are free to misunderstand and abuse everything else...

Another alternative would be for GOD to express his Truths honestly/personally/considerately upon humanity. There are many religions today who force God’s word on its members. In most cases this is not an effective means for understanding. There is a process to understanding that should happen (though this process may vary among different situations and different people) when questioning something as important as Truths (universal or otherwise) and there are many individuals who need more than “because it is written in The Bible” as a reason.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Another alternative would be for GOD to express his Truths honestly/personally/considerately upon humanity. There are many religions today who force God’s word on its members. In most cases this is not an effective means for understanding. There is a process to understanding that should happen (though this process may vary among different situations and different people) when questioning something as important as Truths (universal or otherwise) and there are many individuals who need more than “because it is written in The Bible” as a reason.

I would say that God is very open with humanity in the Bible, and the edits are a testimony to this openness. He has entrusted his words to humanity, and allowed our clumsy fingers to touch it and transmit its message. That is openness.

I certainly understand that people need more than "it is written in the Bible" as a reason. That is why God does not immediately translate people into his presence when they confess Christ. Christians are to live out God's love as a testimony to the truthfullness of the Bible: if its message is not pragmatically beneficial to humanity, then its message is useless. However, if Christians can demonstrate that the love of Christ is powerful and useful, then it is a testimony to the truthfulness of God's Word.

 

[Lycan]

However, the only alternative would be for GOD to force his words on to humanity.

I disagree, for a god to make himself unquestionably known and still have the choice to follow, that would be true free will...

 

[Lycan]

That is openness

That is reason for some to deny its divinity...

 

[cardero]

angellous_evangellous writes: Yeah, the whole imperfect thing is why we needed Jesus Christ in the first place.

There are many people who would disagree and charge Jesus with complicating matters further.
In fact over the centuries there have been many people who have claimed to speak for/through/with God and the only thing that all of these messiahs have in common is that their revelations/understandings conflict with what has been written/spoken/inspired before. You can spend a lifetime (and some people have) deciphering/discussing/understanding the authenticity and the authority of The Bible but it probably would just be easier to write from your own worthy experiences in life.

 

[Scuba Pete]

I disagree, for a god to make himself unquestionably known and still have the choice to follow, that would be true free will...

He has! Belief however is optional. Some people DO argue with a sign post and take the wrong way home.

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

Question - Why would a god let man do any of the above to a holy book that was given to man as a "this is me and this is how I want man to live" guide, if it were indeed a divinely inspired work? [/QUOTE]

Simply put, FREE WILL. God did not write these books. Man did, in his feeble attempt to explain the almighty. But man can only use his own experiences as examples, and only has words that describe the material world that we live in.

 

[Lycan]

Simply put, FREE WILL

I could argue this point, but I won't...

So knowing man would screw it up, he inspires a document that is supposed to help save our souls but doesn't "protect" even that because of "free will"?

Ok, I remember why I don't believe in the bible or the god of.

 

[Lycan]

He has! Belief however is optional. Some people DO argue with a sign post and take the wrong way home.

If that were true everyone would know he exists, there would be no need to question. Belief would not be necessary.

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

I could argue this point, but I won't...

So knowing man would screw it up, he inspires a document that is supposed to help save our souls but doesn't "protect" even that because of "free will"?

Ok, I remember why I don't believe in the bible or the god of.

The bible has survived for a long time. That is my proof that it is important. Every truth is tangled with misconceptions. This is the same for the bible or our History books.

 

[cardero]

angellous_evangellous writes:I would say that God is very open with humanity in the Bible, and the edits are a testimony to this openness. He has entrusted his words to humanity, and allowed our clumsy fingers to touch it and transmit its message. That is openness.

I would even go as far as to say that GOD expects it. Even if there was a new Bible that was witnessed to be scribed by GOD’s hand, it would still come under scrutiny.

angellous_evangellous writes:I certainly understand that people need more than "it is written in the Bible" as a reason. That is why God does not immediately translate people into his presence when they confess Christ.

It is also the reason why GOD provides TRUTHs for us today that need to be PROVEN and tested before we can apply them in our lives. Unfortunately faith is not a key to understanding.

angellous_evangellous writes: Christians are to live out God's love as a testimony to the truthfullness of the Bible: if its message is not pragmatically beneficial to humanity, then its message is useless. However, if Christians can demonstrate that the love of Christ is powerful and useful, then it is a testimony to the truthfulness of God's Word.

GOD does not care where or how you arrive to your TRUTHs (whether they are discovered through a book, observation, personal experience, controlled study, wisdom) as long as you can identify, PROVE and understand them. There are many religions that hold a “see, I told you, God was right” attitude about their doctrines/traditions/beliefs so that they can support and apply faith to other scriptures that have no basis in TRUTH (yet). GOD is not prideful with his TRUTHs nor does GOD hold the copyright to TRUTH or make any claims that he should be worshipped for them. GOD had to come about his own TRUTHs in the same proven methods that we are now underlining for own existences and with that we can be assured that we have GOD’s understanding until we do arrive to those TRUTHs.

 

[cardero]

The bible has survived for a long time. That is my proof that it is important. Every truth is tangled with misconceptions. This is the same for the bible or our History books.

That only proves to me that "somebody" thinks it is important.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

It is also the reason why GOD provides TRUTHs for us today that need to be PROVEN and tested before we can apply them in our lives. Unfortunately faith is not a key to understanding.

How can truths for our lives be tested and proven before we can apply them in our lives?

If the subject of revelation (God) is incomprehensible by science and philosophy (which necesitate revealing), then faith is the only key to understanding.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I disagree, for a god to make himself unquestionably known and still have the choice to follow, that would be true free will...

That's what all the miracles were for in the NT:

The teachings, character, and nature of Jesus Christ is preserved in the NT, beyond the reach of anyone who wishes to posit that these events were added later. We have four Gospels that attest to the works and teaching of Christ: in Him God is unquestionably revealed, and everyone is free to reject Him.

 

[Lycan]

That's what all the miracles were for in the NT:

A book telling you it god is real is in no way unquestionable revelation...

 

[angellous_evangellous]

A book telling you it god is real is in no way unquestionable revelation...

It's not the book that tells us, the book provides a continuing living witness from those who actually saw it. The theology that comes from it can be experienced, and this experience is a witness to its truth.

BTW: I did not say in Scripture God is revealed, but in Jesus Christ. There is a huge difference.:162:

 

[Lycan]

It's not the book that tells us, the book provides a continuing living witness from those who actually saw it. The theology that comes from it can be experienced, and this experience is a witness to its truth

...that we know about from the book... it is all the same and the validity of that book is opinion. You see it as a "continuing living witness" and I see it as just a book. You see it as "truth", I see it as propaganda.

BTW: I did not say in Scripture God is revealed, but in Jesus Christ. There is a huge difference

which is learned from the book....