Unconventional Positions in Judaism

[Flankerl]

Ssh rakhel he understands our religion better than all of us and those that were before us.


We should be thankful that he helps us.

 

[Rakhel]

ssh rakhel he understands our religion better than all of us and those that were before us.


We should be thankful that he helps us.

lol..

 

[JacobEzra.]

It is a plain and simple fact that the Pope is a Christian. A Rabbi is a Jew. Both are sought after for advice and leadership, regardless of their position in hierarchy.

You are very mistaken, and make it easy to see you are ignorant of Catholicism and Judaism.

First get more familiar with these religions, then make comparisons.

 

[JacobEzra.]

What? Okay. Good luck with all that. I'm sorry, but this discussion is absolutely ridiculous. I won't continue on in it.

It is ridiculous to watch you argue with educated Jews about their religion.

Only reason I am watching this thread

 

[Levite]

Understanding the Torah has obviously been quite a task for you, having studied and researched for years and years. But, the truth of the matter is that not everyone finds the Torah that hard to understand. In all actuality, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand the Torah (oral or literal). I’ve read the Torah and I’ve spoken to several Rabbis (you included) and have yet to be stumped by anything. I just think that maybe you are making it more complex than what it really needs to be. Anything can be complex, if you gather under the umbrella of, “This can be interpreted in many ways.” And you can pretty much make anything logical in life -- all you have to do is interpret it until it becomes logical.... Constantly falling back on the interpretation factor comes off as simply being a safety net. ...Some of us feel that if something doesn’t make sense, it just doesn’t make sense. It’s not because of interpretation, it’s because it just doesn’t make sense. If something doesn’t make sense to me, I don’t try to interpret it into making sense and fitting a desired mode. I don’t say, “Well, maybe there’s just a hidden solution that I have yet to find within a different interpretation.” And the fact that it doesn’t make sense doesn’t mean it’s because it’s so complex that it just takes years and years to realize how it makes sense...it’s just that there’s no making sense of it, period....

Life is not black and white, nor is it simplistic. It seems unreasonable to me to suppose that either human society should be either, given that human beings are also not simplistic. And it certainly appears unreasonable to suppose that God is simplistic. So why religion and religious text, which are the nexus point for human society, life, and God, ought to be black and white and simplistic is beyond me. So if one presumes, as I believe would be wise, that all these things are complex and nuanced, then perhaps you are right that education and training will not resolve the complexities and nuances...but they will provide more assistance in trying than lack of education and training will.

Sure, you can oversimplify anything by just ignoring the complexities. That's true: anyone can do so.

But the contention that anyone can just pick up a copy of the Tanakh, ask a few well-placed questions, and come away with due expertise is just ridiculous. One might as well say that because one read one's way through Gray's Anatomy and had lunch with an internist, that now qualifies one as a medical doctor, no MD necessary. And since it is a free country, no one will dispute such a claim (so long as one doesn't try to practice), but it doesn't make one sound like one actually knows what one is doing, and the difference will be marked to anyone who's spoken with a qualified medical practitioner.

It's too bad you went to all that trouble to list all those scriptures because I'm already very aware of these scriptures. The problem is, I didn't say that the "holy" days I mentioned weren't in the Torah or the Old Testament. I said they were not listed in the Ten Commandments. You know, the ten rules given to Moses? Those "holy" days aren't mentioned there. You made a point about the "Sabbath" being in the Ten Commandments, which justified keeping it. The point I, then, made was that the days (and others) I mentioned are not in the Ten Commandments.

"Ten Commandments" is not a hierarchical term. That doesn't mean "Top Ten Commandments," with an implication that all other commandments are somehow of less importance. Those ten simply happened to be the first ones given at Sinai. But they aren't even the first commandments given to the Jews at the Exodus (that would be the establishment of Passover, for those keeping track) nor do they fully comprise what the various authorities of tradition have called the most important commandments in Torah. Jews are bound, as Rakhel said, to all 613 commandments equally, and when we prioritize or consider one commandment more important in a certain situation than another might be, this is not based on whether they are on the list of what happened to be the first ten given at Sinai.

Wait a minute, so are you saying that you don't believe homosexuality is a sin? I just want to make sure I'm correctly understand what you're saying.

The Conservative and Orthodox movements both currently still prohibit male-on-male anal sex, although much of the Conservative movement now permits everything else. But even Modern Orthodoxy agrees that what is prohibited is the specific act, not merely to have the sexual orientation. The Reform movement unilaterally holds all homosexual acts permitted, and though they have not justified their rulings in such a way as to make them permitted by Conservative authorities also, I believe that there is proper halachic methodology to allow Conservative authorities to permit all homosexual acts also. We will have to wait and see about Modern Orthodoxy: change comes slowly for them, and what would be required is an extremely radical piece of halachic innovation-- maybe too radical for them. Nonetheless, I expect that the blanket prohibition against homosexual acts will probably remain perpetually in force in the rest of the Orthodox world.

So if an unmarried couple does it, it's not permissible because there's not supposed to be sex before marriage. But, if you're married, pretty much anything goes. Is that a correct assessment?

The latter statement, absolutely. As to the former, premarital sex is not technically forbidden, it just isn't encouraged. Technically, if a woman is halachically of legal age, and is living independently of her parents, she can decide for herself whether she wishes to sleep with another man before marriage. And premarital sex was never even close to prohibited for men, the custom simply arose in recent centuries of frowning upon men doing so. In the non-Orthodox world, we generally encourage people to express their sexuality in marriage, or at least in long-term committed monogamous relationships. And if in the latter, the same general principles are presumed to exist as in marriage. This pattern of interpretation is rejected in Orthodoxy, despite the fact that many young people still do have premarital sex in those communities, despite its being forbidden. In fact, in some Orthodox circles, anal sex has become the norm for illicit premarital relations, since it preserves virginity.

So let me get this straight, if she wanted to sleep with another woman, it'd be permissible because it pleases her. Is that correct?

Even in non-Orthodox communities, we do not permit adultery. And though in classical halachah, the term only applies to the wife sleeping with a man not her husband, few modern authorities that I am aware would actually permit any third party into a marital sexual dynamic. When I said that I had heard of a couple of rabbis privately noting that by the technical parsing of the halachah, MFF threesomes might be permissible, that was not representative of actual halachic rulings given: it was shop talk about the dynamic and flexible nature of the halachot concerning sexuality. In practice, even if such a thing could be found technically permissible, it is deeply unlikely that any rabbi would issue a ruling to officially permit it, because even if it goes by the letter of the law, it violates the spirit of the law. The principle I mentioned of leniency on permitting married couples wide latitude in their sexual activities clearly was meant by the Rabbis of the Talmud to refer to the husband and the wife, between one another-- not between them and others-- and there is no reason to reinterpret their words today.

The check and balance to our right and duty to reinterpret Torah is that such reinterpretation be done thoughtfully, with meticulous preparation and consideration, and for only the best of reasons. So, for example, when we give married couples wide latitude to have sex more or less as they please, we do this because we understand that sex is powerful driving force, and we are already placing many restrictions on people by demanding marriage and monogamous commitment, by prohibiting sex during menstruation, and by the other various prohibtions concerning sexuality that we have established. There is a longstanding principle that the law cannot be judged in such a way that the resultant ruling is one by which the majority of the people will be unable to abide. That is how the system is structured.

 

[thebigpicture]

You are confusing, like most people do, Judaism with Christianity. We are not committed to just the "Ten Commandments"(which is a Christian term. We are committed to the whole law. All 613.

Don't you see what you just did? I spoke of the Ten Commandments as being rules you had to follow. Things telling you what to do. And what do you go and do -- ? You go and mention 613 more rules that tell you what to do, further proving my point. (Laughs!) Whew!

You want religion to be confined within your definition so you know where you stand and can denigrate it. The problem with that is religion is not confined to a box. it is all around the box. Inside and out of it.

But you know what? If you refuse to look at the big picture, there is no further point in attempting to show it to you.

Have a good day, sir.

(Laughs!!) Yeah, that’s what I thought. C'mon now. You know you know that no matter how you put it, there are rules. Laws are rules. Commandments (no matter how many you have) are rules. You are being told what to do. The concept that people aren’t being told what to do in religion (which is the notion you were trying to sell) defies common sense. I mean come oooon now... if religion isn’t filled with rules and regulations, I don’t know what is. Aaanybody can tell you that. Somebody should have told you that sooner. Then again, you really should have already known it seeing as to how obvious it is.

And a good day to you too!

 

[thebigpicture]

Ssh rakhel he understands our religion better than all of us and those that were before us.


We should be thankful that he helps us.

Hey, no problem! I thought you could use the help!

 

[thebigpicture]

You are very mistaken, and make it easy to see you are ignorant of Catholicism and Judaism.

First get more familiar with these religions, then make comparisons.

Yada, yada, yada. Whatever tickles your fancy.

It is ridiculous to watch you argue with educated Jews about their religion.

Only reason I am watching this thread

It’s ridiculous to watch, but it’s the reason you watch (Laughs!) Ooookay. Now I understand why you couldn’t and clearly still can’t grasp what I was saying.

 

[thebigpicture]

Life is not black and white, nor is it simplistic.

It’s pretty obvious that life isn’t simplistic. Just the human body in and of itself isn’t simplistic. And anybody should be able to observe the universe and know that the Creator most certainly is not simplistic (that’s an understatement). The problem is that people try to be like the Creator and try to make something really simple very complex all for the sake of being complex. There are things in life that are as plain as day. It is black and white. To try to make it gray just so you can say it's more complex or feel it should be more complex is just plain 'ol silly. And the Creator, Himself, wouldn't give us guidelines to live by that were impossible or too difficult to understand. Making things more complicated than what they need to be is man’s way of doing things.

Sure, you can oversimplify anything by just ignoring the complexities. That's true: anyone can do so.

You're making it seem as if I said that people oversimplify. That's not what I said. I said the opposite. People can take something really simple and make it more complex than what it really needs to be.

But the contention that anyone can just pick up a copy of the Tanakh, ask a few well-placed questions, and come away with due expertise is just ridiculous. One might as well say that because one read one's way through Gray's Anatomy and had lunch with an internist, that now qualifies one as a medical doctor, no MD necessary.

Again...missing the point. I want to make it clear that I am not in any way belittling your education. I feel that anytime someone takes the time to educate themselves and do extensive research, it is an intelligent, very smart thing to do. I hold education in extraordinary esteem. The point I made is that you don’t need to be an expert to understand the Torah (oral or written). It’s not rocket science. The human body is very complex (there are things that still haven’t been figured out). Religion, on the other hand, is not. People make it more difficult than what it needs to be by the things they do regarding it.

"Ten Commandments" is not a hierarchical term. That doesn't mean "Top Ten Commandments," with an implication that all other commandments are somehow of less importance. Those ten simply happened to be the first ones given at Sinai. Jews are bound, as Rakhel said, to all 613 commandments equally, and when we prioritize or consider one commandment more important in a certain situation than another might be, this is not based on whether they are on the list of what happened to be the first ten given at Sinai.

You're kidding me, right? Okay, so let me get this straight, you have 613 “commandments” (I’ll play along) which are supposed to be followed equally, but you just pick and choose which is more important than the other. That is what prioritizing is....ranking. You’re going to say they’re all equally important and in the same sentence say you prioritize them. Yeah, okay, that makes a lot of sense. My goodness.

The Conservative and Orthodox movements both currently still prohibit male-on-male anal sex, although much of the Conservative movement now permits everything else. But even Modern Orthodoxy agrees that what is prohibited is the specific act, not merely to have the sexual orientation. The Reform movement unilaterally holds all homosexual acts permitted, and though they have not justified their rulings in such a way as to make them permitted by Conservative authorities also, I believe that there is proper halachic methodology to allow Conservative authorities to permit all homosexual acts also.

In the non-Orthodox world, we generally encourage people to express their sexuality in marriage, or at least in long-term committed monogamous relationships. And if in the latter, the same general principles are presumed to exist as in marriage. This pattern of interpretation is rejected in Orthodoxy, despite the fact that many young people still do have premarital sex in those communities, despite its being forbidden. In fact, in some Orthodox circles, anal sex has become the norm for illicit premarital relations, since it preserves virginity.

I have to say that I am completely flabbergasted. Completely. I mean, you do realize you are saying that homosexuality -- same gender sex -- is permitted in Judaism. I am honestly flabbergasted. Almost without words. The way in which you say Judaism views sex to me is really unbelievable to me (that whole "anal sex keeps virginity intact" reasoning? Wow. Mind-bending). To be that sexually uninhibited in Judaism as to permit anal/oral, same-gender and whatnot sex... absolutely stunning.

The check and balance to our right and duty to reinterpret Torah is that such reinterpretation be done thoughtfully, with meticulous preparation and consideration, and for only the best of reasons. So, for example, when we give married couples wide latitude to have sex more or less as they please, we do this because we understand that sex is powerful driving force, and we are already placing many restrictions on people by demanding marriage and monogamous commitment, by prohibiting sex during menstruation, and by the other various prohibtions concerning sexuality that we have established. There is a longstanding principle that the law cannot be judged in such a way that the resultant ruling is one by which the majority of the people will be unable to abide. That is how the system is structured.

Let me just say this, Levite, and we’re both adults so I'm going to be bluntly honest with you. I don’t mean this as an intentional offense to you (and I speak only for myself), but in all honesty, I now feel that Jews are worse than Christians in hypocrisy. That Judaism is, by far, more hypocritical than Christianity. That’s my honest opinion. And I never felt that way before conversing with you. And though a whole lot of what you’ve said has confirmed what I already thought of Judaism, you’ve said some things I have never, in my life, heard any other Jew (Rabbi or not) say before. And you have given me a whole different perspective, but in a negative way. The way you describe your religion, you’re not really that exclusive. Pretty much anybody could easily fit right in because there is so much leeway to do what is desired. There’s so many different "interpretations" that all a person really has to do is just pick one that allows more of what they want to do and prohibits what they don’t mind being prohibited. And it seems that that is the intention of all these different perspectives -- it’s to keep everybody happy so that, as a whole, everybody stays in line. I see it as a whole different religion than what it was originally intended to be. It reminds me a lot of The New Testament vs. The Old Testament (yeah I already know they are two different religions). It reminds me of the New Testament because people were not satisfied with keeping the rules of the Old Testament as it was, so they re-interpreted it and modernized it to better suit their needs. Whatever they felt should be kept the same, they kept the same, and whatever they felt should be different, they made different. It ended up being something totally different. That’s how Judaism comes off to me now. You have these select groups of people that basically decide what should and should not be kept; what new rules should be initiated; what should be added onto. It’s all up in the air. No kind of definitiveness; it’s all so radical. Everybody is just kind of doing their own thing within their own sect. This is just such a disorganized way of doing things to me.

In the book of Deuteronomy, it clearly states that “god’s” laws and commandments were perfect as they were; not to be added to or taken away from. For you to say that human beings have the right to change what was given to them however they see fit -- so long as it’s done “thoughtfully, with meticulous preparation and consideration, and for only the best of reasons” -- and then turn around and say that “god” gave you the permission and further justify it all by using the words “interpretation and “re-interpret” to do so is the exact same as Christians saying they were going to make the rules of the Old Testament better and then coming up with the New Testament and saying god gave them the permission to do so through Jesus Christ. For it to so clearly state in the Torah that god said his laws and commandments were perfect and then say that he gave you permission to change them is a contradiction in and of itself and could easily be considered blasphemous. Something that is perfect cannot and does not need to be made better. It is already without flaw. To change it in any way, is to say that it is flawed; to say that it is flawed is to say that god is flawed.

I have to say that I’ve always felt it, but I feel it now more than I ever have before that Judaism is just like any other religion -- altogether man-made.

 

[Flankerl]

Hey, no problem! I thought you could use the help!

As the good book says, if you spit in the air, it lands in your face.

 

[Levite]

...Let me just say this, Levite, and we’re both adults so I'm going to be bluntly honest with you. I don’t mean this as an intentional offense to you (and I speak only for myself), but in all honesty, I now feel that Jews are worse than Christians in hypocrisy. That Judaism is, by far, more hypocritical than Christianity. That’s my honest opinion. And I never felt that way before conversing with you. And though a whole lot of what you’ve said has confirmed what I already thought of Judaism, you’ve said some things I have never, in my life, heard any other Jew (Rabbi or not) say before. And you have given me a whole different perspective, but in a negative way. The way you describe your religion, you’re not really that exclusive. Pretty much anybody could easily fit right in because there is so much leeway to do what is desired. There’s so many different "interpretations" that all a person really has to do is just pick one that allows more of what they want to do and prohibits what they don’t mind being prohibited. And it seems that that is the intention of all these different perspectives -- it’s to keep everybody happy so that, as a whole, everybody stays in line. I see it as a whole different religion than what it was originally intended to be. It reminds me a lot of The New Testament vs. The Old Testament (yeah I already know they are two different religions). It reminds me of the New Testament because people were not satisfied with keeping the rules of the Old Testament as it was, so they re-interpreted it and modernized it to better suit their needs. Whatever they felt should be kept the same, they kept the same, and whatever they felt should be different, they made different. It ended up being something totally different. That’s how Judaism comes off to me now. You have these select groups of people that basically decide what should and should not be kept; what new rules should be initiated; what should be added onto. It’s all up in the air. No kind of definitiveness; it’s all so radical. Everybody is just kind of doing their own thing within their own sect. This is just such a disorganized way of doing things to me.

In the book of Deuteronomy, it clearly states that “god’s” laws and commandments were perfect as they were; not to be added to or taken away from. For you to say that human beings have the right to change what was given to them however they see fit -- so long as it’s done “thoughtfully, with meticulous preparation and consideration, and for only the best of reasons” -- and then turn around and say that “god” gave you the permission and further justify it all by using the words “interpretation and “re-interpret” to do so is the exact same as Christians saying they were going to make the rules of the Old Testament better and then coming up with the New Testament and saying god gave them the permission to do so through Jesus Christ. For it to so clearly state in the Torah that god said his laws and commandments were perfect and then say that he gave you permission to change them is a contradiction in and of itself and could easily be considered blasphemous. Something that is perfect cannot and does not need to be made better. It is already without flaw. To change it in any way, is to say that it is flawed; to say that it is flawed is to say that god is flawed.

I just don't have the time or inclination to keep going round and round with you on this. Every society has the ways in which it works, and guidelines-- with exceptions-- that guide it. Either accept that premise or don't, but I just can't find it within myself to care.

I tried to give a basic overview of some of the ways in which these things work, trying-- perhaps unsuccessfully-- to make clear that I am only sketching out some general concepts, history, and thought, but that the processes are actually much more nuanced, well thought-out, and stable than a quick thumbnail description might make them seem.

But either I have not covered what I wanted to say well enough, or you aren't listening. And in either case, the entire effort is undercut by your determination that the entirety of religion ought be elementary to the point of self-evidence to any warm body. And not only is this view incompatible with the Jewish grundnorm (at any point in our history, as far as I can tell), it seems to be incompatible with the realia of human life and the world. But whatever: it is not my business to try and alter your viewpoints.

Your final word seems to be that you think Judaism is a load of crap. I did what I could to explain matters, and my time is done. Mazel tov. Have a nice day.

 

[Desert Snake]

I just don't have the time or inclination to keep going round and round with you on this. Every society has the ways in which it works, and guidelines-- with exceptions-- that guide it. Either accept that premise or don't, but I just can't find it within myself to care.

I tried to give a basic overview of some of the ways in which these things work, trying-- perhaps unsuccessfully-- to make clear that I am only sketching out some general concepts, history, and thought, but that the processes are actually much more nuanced, well thought-out, and stable than a quick thumbnail description might make them seem.

But either I have not covered what I wanted to say well enough, or you aren't listening. And in either case, the entire effort is undercut by your determination that the entirety of religion ought be elementary to the point of self-evidence to any warm body. And not only is this view incompatible with the Jewish grundnorm (at any point in our history, as far as I can tell), it seems to be incompatible with the realia of human life and the world. But whatever: it is not my business to try and alter your viewpoints.

Your final word seems to be that you think Judaism is a load of crap. I did what I could to explain matters, and my time is done. Mazel tov. Have a nice day.

Well I for one find your replies a rare intellectual treat in an often hostile
question and answer environment. Unlike much of the superfluous and
trite, assumptive opinions espoused in these arguments, your posts always have the ring of studied knowledge.

 

[Levite]

Well I for one find your replies a rare intellectual treat in an often hostile
question and answer environment. Unlike much of the superfluous and
trite, assumptive opinions espoused in these arguments, your posts always have the ring of studied knowledge.

Thank you very much. That was very nice of you to say, and very nice to hear.

 

[Desert Snake]

Thank you very much. That was very nice of you to say, and very nice to hear.

No problem.
Just voicing my opinion! I think that 'Rabbinic Viewpoints' are essential to understanding historical,
Christian, and of course Judaic concepts.

 

[thebigpicture]

As the good book says, if you spit in the air, it lands in your face.

(Laughs!) Indeed.

 

[thebigpicture]

I just don't have the time or inclination to keep going round and round with you on this. Every society has the ways in which it works, and guidelines-- with exceptions-- that guide it. Either accept that premise or don't, but I just can't find it within myself to care.

I tried to give a basic overview of some of the ways in which these things work, trying-- perhaps unsuccessfully-- to make clear that I am only sketching out some general concepts, history, and thought, but that the processes are actually much more nuanced, well thought-out, and stable than a quick thumbnail description might make them seem.

But either I have not covered what I wanted to say well enough, or you aren't listening. And in either case, the entire effort is undercut by your determination that the entirety of religion ought be elementary to the point of self-evidence to any warm body. And not only is this view incompatible with the Jewish grundnorm (at any point in our history, as far as I can tell), it seems to be incompatible with the realia of human life and the world. But whatever: it is not my business to try and alter your viewpoints.

One of the Rabbis, in which I had a conversation with before...he was able to answer questions pretty easily -- citing scriptures and all. But these two particular questions I asked him left him just completely stumped. He could not give me a logical answer to these two questions for the life of him. With every explanation he tried to give, it was apparent to both of us that he was just getting deeper and deeper into the realm of complete illogicality. Needless to say, he ended the conversation. That’s what this reminds me of. So, I’m not at all surprised at your reaction. I actually expected it to have happened sooner.

I think, in retrospect, you probably don’t like the picture you painted, but you most certainly painted the picture of Judaism accurately. It was not explaining Judaism in which you failed (thumbnails and sketches can do a lot in painting a pretty big picture). It was trying to make me see the sense in something that simply doesn’t make sense. There are some things you simply can’t get around. You can’t interpret your way into making sense of something that simply does not. There is a lot of confusion within the Jewish community. I know that from conversing with other Jews who’ve said it themselves. But, that’s generally what happens when you have that many different interpretations or opinions (however you want to call it) in the air. It causes confusion. Everybody is saying that they know what they are talking about and it just seems that no one actually does.

The bottom line is that there are just some things that can’t be gotten around. Just the fact that that being described as “god” clearly said in the Torah that his laws and commandments were perfect and not to be added to or taken away from cannot be gotten around. Trying to do so cannot be justified, period. And from what I’ve gathered by conversing with you and other Rabbis/Jews -- man oh man did god have great reason to not want anyone trying to edit him. And if it were all real, I doubt very seriously that he would be pleased about what has transpired over the centuries.

As I’ve stated before, it’s not rocket science (though you seem to think it is). I’ve understood every single thing you’ve said perfectly well. I just feel that your system is completely flawed. I see absolutely no sense and organization to it.

Your final word seems to be that you think Judaism is a load of crap. I did what I could to explain matters, and my time is done. Mazel tov. Have a nice day.

I do think I made myself preeetty clear about how I felt when I spoke about pigs flying through a hell that’s been frozen over. But, don’t feel it’s exclusive to yours. I feel that way overall. I personally feel that religion has been the biggest and most damaging hoax there ever was.

So, yes, I definitely agree. We most certainly should end it here (the tone of my last post was actually an allusion to that). It would be a waste of both our time if we continued on. As I’ve stated before, you’ve confirmed most of my views on Judaism and have given me a whole other perspective in other aspects. And I’ll leave it at that.

Mazel tov. And a good day to you as well!

 

[Yerda]

This thread is the bee's knees.

• I got to learn about Jewish thought on a subject I'd never even comtemplated...and it was fascinating.

Levite, you handled that exceptionally well.

 

[Levite]

This thread is the bee's knees.

• I got to learn about Jewish thought on a subject I'd never even comtemplated...and it was fascinating.

• I also got to see a snippy whining Jew-baiter be made to look like a total arse (must be the subject matter) to everyone but his/herself.

Levite, you handled that exceptionally well.

Thank you very much indeed. And bless you for saying so, it's really nice to hear.

 

[Flankerl]

Wow you seriously have some problems with yourself. Iam not sure that this forum is the place you want to be.


We all get it, you hate religion. Yet you take your precious time to do atheist missionary work on a forum about religion.




PS: Also its very fascinating how you think about Levite. You really are a newbie.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

This is all quite Bizarre.

Every one knows by now the agenda of "thebigpicture"
That he persists in attacking the established and obvious knowledge of a respected Rabbi is quite extraordinary and rather pointless.
It is like an ignoramus telling a Math professor that he can't count.