trinity???

[Giovanni20]

God's spirit descended upon Jesus at his baptism, showing that Jesus was not anointed by spirit until that time. This being so, how could he be part of a Trinity where he had always been one with the holy spirit???????

 

[sojourner]

The people that believe that Jesus and god are the same person obviously dont read the bible. They read what benifits them and skip pages. How would Jesus pray to himself and call himself another name and say that his father is greater than him???

Trinitarians don't believe that Jesus and the Father are the same person...we believe that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are three separate persons in one unity of God.

IT IS said that some Bible texts offer proof in support of the Trinity. However, when reading such texts, we should keep in mind that the Biblical and historical evidence does not support the Trinity.

In what way? (No proof-texting -- use the surrounding context for support!)

 

[sojourner]

God's spirit descended upon Jesus at his baptism, showing that Jesus was not anointed by spirit until that time. This being so, how could he be part of a Trinity where he had always been one with the holy spirit???????

Because God bcame fully human in the person of Jesus. Philippians tells us that the Son left his God-identity and humbled himself, becoming a human. Therefore, being fully human, Jesus was given the gift of the Spirit at baptism...just like any other human being.

 

[Giovanni20]

"In one unity of god"
that in itsself doesnt make any sense.
Three different entities but one unity? So whats it going to be: one or three?[FONT=verdana, helvetica, arial, sans serif](Someone who is "with" another person cannot also be that other person)[/FONT]

 

[sojourner]

"In one unity of god"
that in itsself doesnt make any sense.
Three different entities but one unity? So whats it going to be: one or three?[FONT=verdana, helvetica, arial, sans serif](Someone who is "with" another person cannot also be that other person)[/FONT]

I didn't say they are the same person. The Father is a separate person from the Son. What I said is that they are one God. BTW, cannot many separate people "together" make up the one Body of Christ...the ecclesia? How much more, then, can God be manifest in only three persons?

 

[Giovanni20]

The Encyclopedia Americana comments: "Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching."



Throughout the ancient world, as far back as Babylonia, the worship of pagan gods grouped in threes, or triads, was common. That influence was also prevalent in Egypt, Greece, and Rome in the centuries before, during, and after Christ. And after the death of the apostles, such pagan beliefs began to invade Christianity. Historian Will Durant observed: "Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it. . . . From Egypt came the ideas of a divine trinity." And in the book Egyptian Religion, Siegfried Morenz notes: "The trinity was a major preoccupation of Egyptian theologians . . . Three gods are combined and treated as a single being, addressed in the singular. In this way the spiritual force of Egyptian religion shows a direct link with Christian theology."


Thus, in Alexandria, Egypt, churchmen of the late third and early fourth centuries, such as Athanasius, reflected this influence as they formulated ideas that led to the Trinity. Their own influence spread, so that Morenz considers "Alexandrian theology as the intermediary between the Egyptian religious heritage and Christianity." In the preface to Edward Gibbon's History of Christianity, we read: "If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that Christianity was corrupted by Paganism. The pure Deism of the first Christians . . . was changed, by the Church of Rome, into the incomprehensible dogma of the trinity. Many of the pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief."

A Dictionary of Religious Knowledge notes that many say that the Trinity "is a corruption borrowed from the heathen religions, and ingrafted on the Christian faith." And The Paganism in Our Christianity declares: "The origin of the [Trinity] is entirely pagan."

 

[Giovanni20]

In the book A Statement of Reasons, Andrews Norton says of the Trinity: "We can trace the history of this doctrine, and discover its source, not in the Christian revelation, but in the Platonic philosophy . . . The Trinity is not a doctrine of Christ and his Apostles, but a fiction of the school of the later Platonists."

WHY, for thousands of years, did none of God's prophets teach his people about the Trinity? At the latest, would Jesus not use his ability as the Great Teacher to make the Trinity clear to his followers? Would God inspire hundreds of pages of Scripture and yet not use any of this instruction to teach the Trinity if it were the "central doctrine" of faith?
Are Christians to believe that centuries after Christ and after having inspired the writing of the Bible, God would back the formulation of a doctrine that was unknown to his servants for thousands of years, one that is an "inscrutable mystery" "beyond the grasp of human reason," one that admittedly had a pagan background and was "largely a matter of church politics"? The testimony of history is clear: The Trinity teaching is a deviation from the truth, an apostatizing from it.

 

[sojourner]

The Encyclopedia Americana comments: "Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching."



Throughout the ancient world, as far back as Babylonia, the worship of pagan gods grouped in threes, or triads, was common. That influence was also prevalent in Egypt, Greece, and Rome in the centuries before, during, and after Christ. And after the death of the apostles, such pagan beliefs began to invade Christianity. Historian Will Durant observed: "Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it. . . . From Egypt came the ideas of a divine trinity." And in the book Egyptian Religion, Siegfried Morenz notes: "The trinity was a major preoccupation of Egyptian theologians . . . Three gods are combined and treated as a single being, addressed in the singular. In this way the spiritual force of Egyptian religion shows a direct link with Christian theology."


Thus, in Alexandria, Egypt, churchmen of the late third and early fourth centuries, such as Athanasius, reflected this influence as they formulated ideas that led to the Trinity. Their own influence spread, so that Morenz considers "Alexandrian theology as the intermediary between the Egyptian religious heritage and Christianity." In the preface to Edward Gibbon's History of Christianity, we read: "If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that Christianity was corrupted by Paganism. The pure Deism of the first Christians . . . was changed, by the Church of Rome, into the incomprehensible dogma of the trinity. Many of the pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief."

A Dictionary of Religious Knowledge notes that many say that the Trinity "is a corruption borrowed from the heathen religions, and ingrafted on the Christian faith." And The Paganism in Our Christianity declares: "The origin of the [Trinity] is entirely pagan."

Perhaps the Trinitarian idea is an archetype of truth that crosses religious boundaries.

 

[telecino]

The hindu have: Bramha, Vishnu, Shiva
Egyptian: Osiris, Horus, Isis
Hebrew: Eheieh, Iah, Yehovah
Chistians: Father, Christ, Holy Spirit

Cross link the meanings of each:

Creator: Bramah, Osiris, Eheieh, Father
Created: Vishnu, Horus, Iah, Christ
Transformer: Shiva, Isis, Yehovah, Holy Spirit

I think i see a corespondence here...

(Transforer as in: transmuter, making better, desctructor of darkness, operating the making of the universe,... as you believe, but i still see a corespondence)

 

[telecino]

Following my post above, who is what?

Who is politheist, and who is monotheist?

I guess it depends on the point of view of each person, who wants to save whatever image, but the concepts remain the same. It seems that the spiritual perception we have of creation comes in set of 3.

And i forgot to add the Pythagorian philosophy here, and platon, the celtics...and many other

 

[hanif]

Trinitarians don't believe that Jesus and the Father are the same person...we believe that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are three separate persons in one unity of God.
so god is different and jesus is different and there is three god the others are demagigy.
only the islam is monoteist.

 

[Feathers in Hair]

So you're a Trinitarian?

 

[sojourner]

Trinitarians don't believe that Jesus and the Father are the same person...we believe that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are three separate persons in one unity of God.
so god is different and jesus is different and there is three god the others are demagigy.
only the islam is monoteist.

You're using "God" and "Father" synonymously. God is expressed equally as Father, as Son, and as Holy Spirit: Three expressions of the same God. They are not the same peole, but they are the same God.

 

[michel]

You're using "God" and "Father" synonymously. God is expressed equally as Father, as Son, and as Holy Spirit: Three expressions of the same God. They are not the same peole, but they are the same God.

I think I agree with you. To me, they are the different 'roles' of the one God.

 

[hanif]

there is only one god,jesus is only human.this are the study for compromising of monoteism and polytheism.

 

[sojourner]

there is only one god,jesus is only human.this are the study for compromising of monoteism and polytheism.

Christians maintain that, while Jesus is fully human, Jesus is also fully divine.

 

[Feathers in Hair]

there is only one god,jesus is only human.this are the study for compromising of monoteism and polytheism.

That argument only works if you accept the idea that there is only one god. If you're going to call your fellow self-professed monotheists 'polytheists', then you'd have prove that there is only one god, first. Until you do, everyone else's opinion is equally valid to your own.

 

[hanif]

There Is Only One God allah

 

[Feathers in Hair]

There Is Only One God allah

There are Many Gods, Kwan Yin, Amarastu, Pan, Artemis, Allah, God, Buddha, White Buffalo Calf Woman, Tara, Ganesh... (etc, etc)

I have no more proof for what I claim than you do. Unless you're willing to offer up evidence that no other gods exist, your claim that there is only one god is simply what you believe.

 

[hanif]

42.Say: If there were with Him gods as they say, then certainly they would have been able to seek a way to the Lord of power. 43.Glory be to Him and exalted be He in high exaltation above what they say. 44.The seven heavens declare His glory and the earth (too), and those who are in them; and there is not a single thing but glorifies Him with His praise, but you do not understand their glorification; surely He is Forbearing, Forgiving.
59.Say: Praise be to Allah and peace on His servants whom He has chosen: is Allah better, or what they associate (with Him)? 60.Nay, He Who created the heavens and the earth, and sent down for you water from the cloud; then We cause to grow thereby beautiful gardens; it is not possible for you that you should make the trees thereof to grow. Is there a god with Allah? Nay! they are people who deviate. 61.Or, Who made the earth a restingplace, and made in it rivers, and raised on it mountains and placed between the two seas a barrier. Is there a god with Allah? Nay! most of them do not know! 62.Or, Who answers the distressed one when he calls upon Him and removes the evil, and He will make you successors in the earth. Is there a god with Allah? Little is it that you mind! 63.Or, Who guides you in utter darkness of the land and the sea, and Who sends the winds as good news before His mercy. Is there a god with Allah? Exalted by Allah above what they associate (with Him). 64.Or, Who originates the creation, then reproduces it and Who gives you sustenance from the heaven and the earth. Is there a god With Allah? Say: Bring your proof if you are truthful. koran