Trinity claims that the Jews believed that a Son is equal to his Father

[PearlSeeker]

I was there when he established the heavens,
when he laid out the horizon on the surface of the ocean,
when he placed the skies above,
when the fountains of the ocean gushed out,
when he set a limit for the sea
so that the waters would not violate his command,
when he laid out the foundations of the earth.
I was a skilled craftsman beside him.
(Proverbs 8)

 

[Soapy]

I was there when he established the heavens,
when he laid out the horizon on the surface of the ocean,
when he placed the skies above,
when the fountains of the ocean gushed out,
when he set a limit for the sea
so that the waters would not violate his command,
when he laid out the foundations of the earth.
I was a skilled craftsman beside him.
(Proverbs 8)

‘Wisdom’ is a ‘She’ (female).

‘The Son’ is a ‘He’ (Male!).

Read from chapter 8:1… 1 over to chapter 9:1+++

God possessed Wisdom from before the beginning of time…. Wisdom was ever by the side of God as God carried out his works (it says in chapter 8).

If you get clear things like this wrong then it is also clear why you get so many other things wrong.

But, sadly, like nearly all Trinitarians, I doubt you will learn from your errors…. You will just move onto to someone else and spew the same nonsense hoping this new person is gullible!

There really no joy in being wrong - Finding someone who agrees with the wrong that you believe does not make the wrong right!!

 

[PearlSeeker]

"... yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist." (1 Cor)

 

[Soapy]

"... yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist." (1 Cor)

God the Father is the creator…..

The lord Jesus Christ is now the one THROUGH WHOM we live… Jesus Christ is the one who will decide who will go to paradise and who will be destroyed…

The world the great Father created is FOR the sin of his love (most beloved: Firstborn over all creation).

 

[PearlSeeker]

The lord Jesus Christ is now the one THROUGH WHOM we live… Jesus Christ is the one who will decide who will go to paradise and who will be destroyed…

Is this really "through whom all things came and through whom we exist"? It seems you are mixing apples and oranges.

 

[Soapy]

Is this really "through whom all things came and through whom we exist"? It seems you are mixing apples and oranges.

No, The verse says that God created all things FOR the Son.

And that is completely logical and right: a Father creates a glorious thing FOR his son.

It is ludicrous to say that the Father did not create anything when the son says that he can do nothing except what he sees his Father doing. You say that the son created even though he had no pre-creation from the Father… how is that any kind of sense or even reality?

You won’t answer as to how the son came to inherit from the father what you claim the son created.

Can I ask you to do that now using your theme of ‘The son created everything’?

 

[PearlSeeker]

No, The verse says that God created all things FOR the Son.

And that is completely logical and right: a Father creates a glorious thing FOR his son.

No. The verse before says all things come from God (Father) and we exists for Him.

"... there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist."

It is ludicrous to say that the Father did not create anything when the son says that he can do nothing except what he sees his Father doing. You say that the son created even though he had no pre-creation from the Father… how is that any kind of sense or even reality?

Who said that? The Father and Son are both engaged in creating - Father created everything through Son. Nowhere do you read that Son alone by himself created.

You won’t answer as to how the son came to inherit from the father what you claim the son created.

Simple. I built something with my father but it isn't my property. The owner is still my father. I 'll be the owner when my father transfers the ownership to me.

 

[Soapy]

No. The verse before says all things come from God (Father) and we exists for Him.

"... there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist."


Who said that? The Father and Son are both engaged in creating - Father created everything through Son. Nowhere do you read that Son alone by himself created.


Simple. I built something with my father but it isn't my property. The owner is still my father. I 'll be the owner when my father transfers the ownership to me.

But if you say that Jesus IS GOD then Jesus already owns what he created, you say!!

Yoh see the problem created by the pseudo-Arian/trinitarian (or whatever you call it) false ideology? All it can do is to take snippets of truth at one time and falsify it without reference to any other aspect …

Jesus said nothing about creating anything. Jesus said that the elect and the angels belong to the Father, and the Father gave them to him. At no time does Jesus identify with any creation time created being as being his own works—- He attributes all things to the Father.

It is thus clear that certain Bible translators were clearly trinitarian-biased and, as I have read and believe, were forced to attempt to turn any translation they could into a trinity-based one.

They even attempted to ADD complete text in to deceive people. No one could know in the past because most people couldn’t read - indeed if anyone other than an authorised person could read they were deemed as SATANIC … and murdered!!!

Happily, today, people can read and see those wretched SATANIC modifications and additions (omissions are harder to find…!) and many are fully documented (albeit only in footnotes) in the scripture bibles. However, since trinity churches are the main churches by far, the congregation are dis encouraged to even ask about them… they fear, like in the past, to be ostracised. Church Bible lessons are hardly what their titles come to… more like sessions for further indoctrination and gardening of the fallacies of the belief… to which you have clearly fallen victim.

Satan calls to you and gives you the power to be ‘Clever’ enough to come up with seemingly provocative solutions to questions. But they still fail.

Point of fact, you have already greatly erred by claiming that ‘Wisdom’ is pre-existent Jesus. Yet the scriptures says that ‘Wisdom’ is female. To err so badly, you must be struggling to justify your point of view. Was it because it appeared to say that ‘The Son of God was POSSESSED by God before creation’???
Tut tut…! God possessed wisdom before creation… wisdom enabled God to make the right decisions in the creation process… wisdom guided God in all his works…. If that was the Son it would mean that the son is as wise, if not WISER than God!!!

By the way, I’m not sure I explored this with you:

• Just how did the Son come about in pre-existence?

 

[PearlSeeker]

But if you say that Jesus IS GOD then Jesus already owns what he created, you say!!

Arianism/Subordinationism already settled this. The problem is only "the Word was God" in John 1.

Jesus said nothing about creating anything.

Author of John (John 1 Prologue) and Paul said it explicitly.

Jesus said in GofJ: "My Father is always working, and so am I." (Yes, I know it's ambiguous.)

It is thus clear that certain Bible translators were clearly trinitarian-biased and, as I have read and believe, were forced to attempt to turn any translation they could into a trinity-based one.

Any proof that the exact verse (1 Cor 8:6) is falsely translated?

Point of fact, you have already greatly erred by claiming that ‘Wisdom’ is pre-existent Jesus. Yet the scriptures says that ‘Wisdom’ is female.

So what if the word wisdom is female? It's before any human existed (and thus also any sex in this regard). (God) Father is also grammatically male but God is actually neither male or female.

Jesus was not pre-existent. Only when the Word (creative agent/principle) incarnated (became human) it became Jesus.

By the way, I’m not sure I explored this with you:

• Just how did the Son come about in pre-existence?

Two possibilities:
1. He was created before all (other) creation.
OR
2. He was co-eternal with Father.

 

[Soapy]

Arianism/Subordinationism already settled this. The problem is only "the Word was God" in John 1.

Author of John (John 1 Prologue) and Paul said it explicitly.

You are doing that thing of not understanding what the word ‘God’ means… You are taking it as a PERSON.

NO!!! Stop it!!! Please. You are intelligent enough to see that the term ‘word’ is being related to an ADJECTIVE… and a SUPERLATIVE ADJECTIVE at that.

Please do not tell me (oh, go on, then!) that you do not know what a superlative adjective is… find out and give me an example!!
(I’ll be checking to see if you answer!)

It is purely trinitarian to claim that the word of THE GOD OF THE JEWS was GOD! There is no sense in that statement and no other point except that THE WORD OF THE GOD OF THE JEWS was a SUPREME word… a SPOKEN ENTITY:

• “Let there be light!!”
• “Let the waters…”
• “Let the ground…”
• “Let the trees…”

for instance… Also EVERY WORD that THE GOD OF THE JEWS uttered was supreme and almighty.

‘GOD’ is JUST A REFERENCE to an almighty entity… Virtually ALL religious beliefs have an almighty entity (and most have several entities referred to as their GODS)… it is not unique to the Jews. If anything it would be better to say, ‘Deity’:

• ‘The deity they worshipped and revered AS THEIR GOD’
• ‘The deity they worshipped and revered as their ALMIGHTY BEING’

Some took carved stone or wood as their ‘God’… others were fooled into believing in invisible Spirits that proved worthless when put to the test.

No! You must stop this nonsense about John 1:1 etc. Those verse are TRICKS of words, deliberately made vague to fool the unwary - and it worked!!!

Jesus said in GofJ: "My Father is always working, and so am I." (Yes, I know it's ambiguous.)

There is nothing ambiguous about what Jesus said here. The Jews got it into their heads that on the sabbath day no work, absolutely no ordinarily daily work, must be carried out. This was wrong since this was imposed by MOSES in his time because slavery was rife and unless such a stringent rule was put into force the Jews might be made to carry on working at their weekday work. But Moses ONLY MEANT LABOURING… Jesus pointed out that DOUNG GOOD is a never ending job… it is not LABOURING… in fact, Jesus pointed out that the Jews broke their struck law anyway since if a donkey they owned fell into a well they wouldn’t hesitate to pull it out: Labouring.

The words of Jesus means that EVEN GOD (whom the sabbath was dedicated to) was, himself, DOING WORK … OF GOODNESS on the Sabbath, and, since the Father does works of goodness on the sabbath, then so, too, does the Son!!

AND THEY SHOULD DO SO ALSO!

Any proof that the exact verse (1 Cor 8:6) is falsely translated?

The proof is in the reading and understanding of it… in other words, that it makes NO SENSE… It, at one moment claims that the Son created all things, then it claims that the Father created all things, then it is whittled down to that the Father created THROUGH the Son FOR THE SON!

If you can’t see that that is what it’s saying then you are certainly captured by its absurdity!! No one AT ALL would write a sentence like that in any literature and expect it to pass the proof reader. It’s purely because it’s an aged religious text why it is not tossed out as FAKED.

I can see where it is modified from ‘The Father created all things for the son’ to ‘The SON created all things THROUGH THE SON and FOR THE SON’… oh boy!!!

So what if the word wisdom is female? It's before any human existed (and thus also any sex in this regard). (God) Father is also grammatically male but God is actually neither male or female.

Backsliding!!! Only hardcore and desperate Trinitarians STILL continue to suggest that wisdom is Jesus. By far the majority of deluded Christian’s have ditched this ‘[non-]proof’. How come you are still latching onto what even Trinitarians have ditched…. (That ‘proof’ is so old I can only think you must have only just found the verse and thought you found gold!!! Fools-Gold, is what you found!)

Jesus was not pre-existent. Only when the Word (creative agent/principle) incarnated (became human) it became Jesus.

Well, at least you said something true there about Jesus not being pre-existent. But you do know that you just scuppered yourself AGAIN when you at one point say Jesus is Wisdom (from before creation) and now say he wasn’t pre-existent…. Not any wisdom there!!!!

Two possibilities:
1. He was created before all (other) creation.
OR
2. He was co-eternal with Father.

See above…. I really don’t think you are joining the dots…. You appear to be doing that isolation thing where you don’t relate one thing you say to something you said before!!

You really are all at sea in your belief….

What belief system is it you subscribe to?

Who is teaching you this nonsense?

 

[PearlSeeker]

You are doing that thing of not understanding what the word ‘God’ means… You are taking it as a PERSON.

NO!!! Stop it!!! Please. You are intelligent enough to see that the term ‘word’ is being related to an ADJECTIVE… and a SUPERLATIVE ADJECTIVE at that.

Proof please.

The Jews got it into their heads that on the sabbath day no work,

And this is because...?

The words of Jesus means that EVEN GOD (whom the sabbath was dedicated to) was, himself, DOING WORK … OF GOODNESS on the Sabbath, and, since the Father does works of goodness on the sabbath, then so, too, does the Son!!

OK.

The proof is in the reading and understanding of it… in other words, that it makes NO SENSE…

So no proof. Thank you.

But you do know that you just scuppered yourself AGAIN when you at one point say Jesus is Wisdom (from before creation) and now say he wasn’t pre-existent….

You are making things up. Where did I say this?

You really are all at sea in your belief….

What belief system is it you subscribe to?

Who is teaching you this nonsense?

It's useless to repeat the same things over and over again.

 

[Soapy]

Proof please.

When Jesus was confronted by those seeking ‘proof’ by signs, he said to them:

• ‘A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.’ (Matt 12:39)

And this is because...?

I don’t know what you are asking? What I think you are asking… the Jews fearsome objection to any kind of ‘work’: Healing is Doctoring; Making bread is Bakering; even to carry your bed is Transportation…!

OK.

…

So no proof. Thank you.

Proof by CONTRADICTION…. The verses CONTRADICT each other.
Can I take it you know nothing about ‘proof by contradiction’? Look it up.
The point is that truth proves itself. Where there is a request for a ‘show it’s NOT true’ then if it’s true then it proves itself; if it’s false then the proof of fallacy is by contradiction: the ‘proof’ contradicts itself therefore it is NOT TRUE.

Your claim is that the verse says that both the Father and the son both created together…
AND that the Father created THROUGH the Son…
And that the Father created all things FOR the Son…
And that the Son created all things…

Prove that the above is NOT TRUE (That it was the Son who created all things BY HIMSELF: ‘I created all things by myself’ is what the creator says)

Wow, you can’t see the contradiction - and are trying to boast that I can’t show you that it is a contradiction?
We do not know the original verse before they were corrupted. And corrupted they are since they make no sense - The originator is telling a truth but the translators, for their own purpose, corrupted the verse to TRY to make it read how they wanted it - but they failed because they did not do it fully. It was purposeful that they kept things impersonal so the reader reads into it whom they wanted to read. But even then they missed crucial linguistic points such as BOTH attributing creation to the Father AND to the Son but then THROUGH the Son AND FOR the Son… Yet there is nowhere in scriptures where anyone writes that TWO Spirit persons created all things. In fact, the whole point is that ‘GOD’ made all things BY HIMSELF.

But now your ‘wisdom’ says, ‘God lied… it was GOD and the Son who created’

Though trinitarian claims are clearly false, at least they say that Jesus is God and thus qualifies the ‘By himself: God, though three, is one!’ They say!
But you rightly say that Jesus IS NOT GOD … and therefore there is yet ANOTHER CONTRADICTION in which TWO are claimed against the ONE that is professed!

Therefore, it is not the PROOF that you are asking for - that is evident. Instead, it is your obstinacy and resistance after seeing the proof!… As the scriptures says:

• “However, the Most High does not live in houses made by human hands. As the prophet says [concerning the most high]: ’Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. What kind of house will you build for me? says the Lord. Or where will my resting place be? Has not my hand made all these things?’ “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit! Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him—“ (Acts 7:48-54)

Yes, you ‘murder’ Jesus by your false claims!

You are making things up. Where did I say this?

This is ever the problem (a trait) when people make false claims. They FORGET what they said before - or what they IMPLIED as they made false claims - only to say later on when they are confronted by the truth: ‘Where did I say that!!??’

I suggest you look back through your last few post and see exactly where you said or implied that Jesus is wisdom. You were even dismissing the fact that wisdom is female - and the Son is male… You said that gender didn’t matter yet Jerusalem is gendered as Female. Point? Wisdom is not a person, nor is Jerusalem!

It's useless to repeat the same things over and over again.

The scriptures makes repeated attempts to forewarn of the coming judgement … but the hard hearted ones ignore the repeated warning and wonder why punishment comes upon them.

 

[PearlSeeker]

When Jesus was confronted by those seeking ‘proof’ by signs, he said to them:

Apples and oranges (strawman) fallacy. I'm not asking for signs that Jesus is the Messiah. I was asking for linguistic explanation/proof why all known translations are incorrect regarding "the Word was God" verse.

Proof by CONTRADICTION…. The verses CONTRADICT each other.

Strawman. The verses make perfect sense. A can create through B for B. No contradiction. Also my personal experience with my father.

You were even dismissing the fact that wisdom is female - and the Son is male…

You said that I said the Wisdom was Jesus. Now you say Son (not Jesus). I already explained that I don't equate this. Son/Word/Christ means someone who isn't human and who existed before the world was created (pre-existing like Wisdom). This same Son became human Jesus at a time in history - when the world already existed.

 

[Soapy]

Apples and oranges (strawman) fallacy. I'm not asking for signs that Jesus is the Messiah. I was asking for linguistic explanation/proof why all known translations are incorrect regarding "the Word was God" verse.


Strawman. The verses make perfect sense. A can create through B for B. No contradiction. Also my personal experience with my father.


You said that I said the Wisdom was Jesus. Now you say Son (not Jesus). I already explained that I don't equate this. Son/Word/Christ means someone who isn't human and who existed before the world was created (pre-existing like Wisdom). This same Son became human Jesus at a time in history - when the world already existed.

Basically, all you think, all you say, all you take as your ideology is nonsense!

I asked you if you know what a superlative adjective is - but you didn’t even entertain the question … now you say I didn’t explain what ‘word’ and the rest means in John 1:1.

The fact that you do not respond when asked when you know it fails your ideology is exactly why I posted that verse from the Acts of the Apostles to you… bug you still didn’t understand it… yeh! The very thing the verse spoke of… You kill the prophet that brought you the word of God… The truth is shown to you and yet you dismiss it and call it a straw man (whatever that is!).

So, the time for repeating the truth to you is over.

You can keep on believing the nonsense that clearly no one has taught you - which you mis-see with your own clouded eyes:

• “As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things.” (John 8:40)

Abraham had faith to believe God… and prospered!
Unless you see with your own eyes and touch with you’d own hands, you will not believe… ones such as you show here are only worth the resistance as a training tool for more devious debaters.

Just in ending; a superlative adjective in the case of John 1:1 is that the word of the supreme being (The Deity that is the God of the Jews) is itself almighty.

• ‘The word of God is an almighty one’
• ‘Let there be light!’ is an almighty, powerful, majestic, supreme, all encompassing entity… There is no higher magnitude of of an event put into words. God’s word is total!! God’s word IS GOD! ‘God’ .. an all encompassing being.., THE supreme being, the most majestic being, most monumental in power and authority… above all things. There is none equal nor greater!

I showed you that ‘God’ is just a ‘superlative adjective’ for the deity (worshipped one) of the Jews: the GOD of the Jews. Most or virtually all religions have some kind of almighty being which they worship: a or many, deities, which are their GODS. They live by the guidance (or so-called) of these gods and reverence them wholeheartedly. The Jews are no different, except that the Jews (and Muslims - since their religious roots are the same) believe and reverence only one such deity, one GOD alone. That Jewish God spoke words of superlativeness as such an almighty being would speak. This is ‘The word of God’.
But ‘Let there be light’ is not the only word that God (let’s shorten ‘Deity/God of the Jews to just “God”) spoke. God spoke that a saviour would come into the world… That was an enormous word since it is a prophesy tens of thousands of years in hand….
And suddenly, it happened: The word of God spoken by God… put on flesh! The word of God concerning the saviour CAME TO FRUITION… came true.. The saviour was here in the flesh in the child, Jesus.
And God TAUGHT Jesus what to say and do… and Jesus said and did what God taught and showed him to do… THEREFORE Jesus is the very WORD OF GOD… If you do and say exactly as a teacher taught you to say and do then you are the very word of that teacher… an honest and faithful emissary DOES AND SAYS exactly what his king tells him to say and shows him to do before he is dispatched! That emissary is ‘the word of the king!’

Bye bye!!

 

[PearlSeeker]

Basically, all you think, all you say, all you take as your ideology is nonsense!

I asked you if you know what a superlative adjective is - but you didn’t even entertain the question … now you say I didn’t explain what ‘word’ and the rest means in John 1:1.

The fact that you do not respond when asked when you know it fails your ideology is exactly why I posted that verse from the Acts of the Apostles to you… bug you still didn’t understand it… yeh! The very thing the verse spoke of… You kill the prophet that brought you the word of God… The truth is shown to you and yet you dismiss it and call it a straw man (whatever that is!).

So, the time for repeating the truth to you is over.

You can keep on believing the nonsense that clearly no one has taught you - which you mis-see with your own clouded eyes:

• “As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things.” (John 8:40)

Abraham had faith to believe God… and prospered!
Unless you see with your own eyes and touch with you’d own hands, you will not believe… ones such as you show here are only worth the resistance as a training tool for more devious debaters.

Just in ending; a superlative adjective in the case of John 1:1 is that the word of the supreme being (The Deity that is the God of the Jews) is itself almighty.

• ‘The word of God is an almighty one’
• ‘Let there be light!’ is an almighty, powerful, majestic, supreme, all encompassing entity… There is no higher magnitude of of an event put into words. God’s word is total!! God’s word IS GOD! ‘God’ .. an all encompassing being.., THE supreme being, the most majestic being, most monumental in power and authority… above all things. There is none equal nor greater!

I showed you that ‘God’ is just a ‘superlative adjective’ for the deity (worshipped one) of the Jews: the GOD of the Jews. Most or virtually all religions have some kind of almighty being which they worship: a or many, deities, which are their GODS. They live by the guidance (or so-called) of these gods and reverence them wholeheartedly. The Jews are no different, except that the Jews (and Muslims - since their religious roots are the same) believe and reverence only one such deity, one GOD alone. That Jewish God spoke words of superlativeness as such an almighty being would speak. This is ‘The word of God’.
But ‘Let there be light’ is not the only word that God (let’s shorten ‘Deity/God of the Jews to just “God”) spoke. God spoke that a saviour would come into the world… That was an enormous word since it is a prophesy tens of thousands of years in hand….
And suddenly, it happened: The word of God spoken by God… put on flesh! The word of God concerning the saviour CAME TO FRUITION… came true.. The saviour was here in the flesh in the child, Jesus.
And God TAUGHT Jesus what to say and do… and Jesus said and did what God taught and showed him to do… THEREFORE Jesus is the very WORD OF GOD… If you do and say exactly as a teacher taught you to say and do then you are the very word of that teacher… an honest and faithful emissary DOES AND SAYS exactly what his king tells him to say and shows him to do before he is dispatched! That emissary is ‘the word of the king!’

Bye bye!!

Bye. God bless you.