Transubstantiation

[TheInfiniteLight]

There is no need for the consumption of the flesh and blood of the son of man. You will not inherit eternal life by consuming bread and wine.

The truth is already present within the body. One must come to know oneself to realize who oneself is. When a person sees the light they see themselves. They form a relationship between who they are and the light within. This is your image, the knowledge of one's self in relationship to the presence of truth within the human being. From this you either pass away or you fail. Nevertheless, the light dwells within you if you fail; and torments you in your image. Those who pass away become the light, the truth. The body and truth are one. The truth is ever present and sufficient to the body. In the spirit of truth, one does not need an external source or medium to transubstantiate the body into the truth. One does not need bread and wine to carry the spirit into the body. The truth is already present within the body, just as the truth is present in all things. One must see the light in order to manifest this presence of truth to the knowing of one's self. When the body and truth unite, that is the unity of the holy presence, the holy spirit. You become the spirit because of the body. Jesus says, If the flesh came to be because of the spirit that is a wonder. If the spirit came to be because of the body that is a wonder of wonders...

 

[frangipani]

There is no need for the consumption of the flesh and blood of the son of man. You will not inherit eternal life by consuming bread and wine.

I agree with you with this, because in this analogy Christ is referring to consummation of the Living Word, which He is, obviously not the physical body of Jesus He inhabits. Nor does bread and wine substitute this, but symbolically shows that one is a consumer of Truth through Christ. A ritual that some believe is necessary, others not so. The important thing is that we all realise that it is the consummation of the Living Word that matters.

 

[frangipani]

My blunder, These comments were mine not TheInfiniteLight's comments, sorry.
I agree with you with this, because in this analogy Christ is referring to consummation of the Living Word, which He is, obviously not the physical body of Jesus He inhabited. Nor does bread and wine substitute this, but symbolically shows that one is a consumer of Truth through Christ. A ritual that some believe is necessary, others not so. The important thing is that we all realise that it is the consummation of the Living Word that matters. It is worth noting that words came into being from the Ineffable Spirit so that the expression of thought could be transmitted and tangibly seen by others in the Spiritual dimension. and this is the same here in the matter dimension because the Spirit is trapped within the body, but through the Word the Spirit can overcome the body and manifest itself through it.

 

[ELoWolfe]

Why would Jesus Christ institute the Eucharist if it was a hollow ritual? Why would he ask his followers to remember him through the rite?

 

[frangipani]

Why would Jesus Christ institute the Eucharist if it was a hollow ritual? Why would he ask his followers to remember him through the rite?

I don't think that it is a hollow ritual but as Jesus spoke in parables to explain the fundamentals of the Christian message to what was and still is largely an ignorant population through things they knew and understood, for example the parable of the mustard seed. These parables could then be understood and passed on through an oral tradition as well as a written form. The Eucharist was a method placed in ritual to remind a largely illiterate population of the day that they were partakers of the Living Word. In our more literate society today we can read this message for itself in Scripture, Living water, Bread of life, etc. Asking his followers to remember Him this way, is asking them to remember who He was and what He is, The Living Word. It is not about bread and wine, it is about Truth and Life.

 

[TheInfiniteLight]

My blunder, These comments were mine not TheInfiniteLight's comments, sorry.
I agree with you with this, because in this analogy Christ is referring to consummation of the Living Word, which He is, obviously not the physical body of Jesus He inhabited. Nor does bread and wine substitute this, but symbolically shows that one is a consumer of Truth through Christ. A ritual that some believe is necessary, others not so. The important thing is that we all realise that it is the consummation of the Living Word that matters. It is worth noting that words came into being from the Ineffable Spirit so that the expression of thought could be transmitted and tangibly seen by others in the Spiritual dimension. and this is the same here in the matter dimension because the Spirit is trapped within the body, but through the Word the Spirit can overcome the body and manifest itself through it.

Very good. One thing the spirit does not overcome the body. It becomes the body. The manifestation of truth becomes you in the body of the flesh. The body should not be overcome, neither the flesh. Both the flesh and the body should become the vessel of truth. Jesus says, whoever drinks from my mouth will come into my way. I will become that person and that person shall become me.

 

[TheInfiniteLight]

Why would Jesus Christ institute the Eucharist if it was a hollow ritual? Why would he ask his followers to remember him through the rite?

Jesus speaks according to the emptiness of each man's soul. What he provides for one man is not the same provision for another. He intended there to be a church for those who could see no other way. How could one say the eucharist is valid but not the human being? Does not the human being precede bread and wine in gods kingdom? Why would one doubt that the spirit could come to be within the human being? The source of the spirit is life, not bread and wine. Life already exists within your body. God's presence is already within. One does not have to turn toward the church as the gateway to the presence within. The world is the body in which we exist, we in turn exist within our own bodies. If the life of the body is the presence of god then it is everywhere. There is no need for a "middle man".

 

[TheInfiniteLight]

I don't think that it is a hollow ritual but as Jesus spoke in parables to explain the fundamentals of the Christian message to what was and still is largely an ignorant population through things they knew and understood, for example the parable of the mustard seed. These parables could then be understood and passed on through an oral tradition as well as a written form. The Eucharist was a method placed in ritual to remind a largely illiterate population of the day that they were partakers of the Living Word. In our more literate society today we can read this message for itself in Scripture, Living water, Bread of life, etc. Asking his followers to remember Him this way, is asking them to remember who He was and what He is, The Living Word. It is not about bread and wine, it is about Truth and Life.

Think of gods plan for the world. Within their own scripture he tells them they are hard of hearing and seeing. They see and do not see, they hear and do not hear. What would gods plan be? Most people are unwilling to accept him as he truly is. They just want to see themselves within their own interpretation of god. So what god does is give them, something easy to handle. So he relates his word to their daily lives. Farming and fishing and the like. He gives them something that is easy for them to accept; so he says eat this bread and drink this wine to inherit eternal life. However, the light shines through his word...for those who seek the life-giving truth.

 

[ELoWolfe]

What, then, of the Gospel of Phillip, which states we should drink the wine?

"The cup of prayer contains wine and water, since it is appointed as the type of the blood for which thanks is given. And it is full of the Holy Spirit, and it belongs to the wholly perfect man. When we drink this, we shall receive for ourselves the perfect man. The living water is a body. It is necessary that we put on the living man. Therefore, when he is about to go down into the water, he unclothes himself, in order that he may put on the living man."

Are not the sacraments holy?

 

[nazz]

I go to a church that teaches that the bread and wine literally transform in the flesh and blood of Christ. I don't believe that but when a part of the wafer got stuck in my teeth I thought oh no, I got a piece of Jesus stuck in my teeth

 

[gnosisofthomas]

There is no need for the consumption of the flesh and blood of the son of man. You will not inherit eternal life by consuming bread and wine.

The truth is already present within the body. One must come to know oneself to realize who oneself is. When a person sees the light they see themselves. They form a relationship between who they are and the light within. This is your image, the knowledge of one's self in relationship to the presence of truth within the human being. From this you either pass away or you fail. Nevertheless, the light dwells within you if you fail; and torments you in your image. Those who pass away become the light, the truth. The body and truth are one. The truth is ever present and sufficient to the body. In the spirit of truth, one does not need an external source or medium to transubstantiate the body into the truth. One does not need bread and wine to carry the spirit into the body. The truth is already present within the body, just as the truth is present in all things. One must see the light in order to manifest this presence of truth to the knowing of one's self. When the body and truth unite, that is the unity of the holy presence, the holy spirit. You become the spirit because of the body. Jesus says, If the flesh came to be because of the spirit that is a wonder. If the spirit came to be because of the body that is a wonder of wonders...

While I agree that the truth is already present and we have the Light within us, I would completely disagree with what you said about the Eucharist. The reception of the Eucharist serves to break down the barriers between us and the divine, which we experience in this world. In fact, all of the Sacraments help do that, and are essential on the path of Gnosis.

The Gospel of Philip says: "The Lord did everything in a Mystery: A baptism, and a Chrism, and a Eucharist, and a Redemption, and a Bride-Chamber."

Later it says, "The Eucharist is Jesus." As someone else pointed out, when we receive the Eucharist, we "receive the living man" and it's "necessary to put on the living man". Gnosis is certainly a personal experience, but the Eucharist is food for the journey toward that experience. If you reject the flesh and blood, "you have no life in you."

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The Eucharist is not Jesus' literal flesh and blood. It is not His hair, His toes, and His fingers. Catholics are not consuming the literal Jesus.

Instead, the Eucharist (I believe) or communion in any Church IS Jesus' body and blood because like the Mana that fell from the sky to give the Israelite food and the wine that symbolizes life, the bread nourishes us and the wine gives us life.

We can exist without the Eucharist; and, in my personal opinion, without the Eucharist, the Non-Catholic Christian has an abstract relationship with Christ. It is not less important than that of Catholicism. However, the Eucharist makes Christ not only a spiritual person in a Christian's life, but also flesh and blood through the bread (mana/spiritual and physical nourishment) and wine (life--like water) as in the OT.

The combination of having Christ inside someone and siting at His table and eating of His food (which food is important in many cultures--it's not just a Mc Donald's meal) who is Himself.

To me, when I was a practicing Catholic, without the Eucharist, my faith in God was empty. Just belief did not let me know inside and out that I was serving God. Faith is just the hope of things unseen is real. The Eucharist makes that faith concrete.

It's very profound when one takes the Eucharist. It is like the physical and spiritual combined and taken into your body both at the same time is such a wonderful experience that just having faith and walking around sinning can never replace.

--

I never agreed that the priest himself transforms the bread/wine into Jesus' body/blood (not his toes and DNA). Rather, God continues to bless the sacraments (rather they are blessed in themselves), and we consume them to physically as well as spiritually know God is within us.

Faith only goes so far without action.

There is no need for the consumption of the flesh and blood of the son of man. You will not inherit eternal life by consuming bread and wine.

The truth is already present within the body. One must come to know oneself to realize who oneself is. When a person sees the light they see themselves. They form a relationship between who they are and the light within. This is your image, the knowledge of one's self in relationship to the presence of truth within the human being. From this you either pass away or you fail. Nevertheless, the light dwells within you if you fail; and torments you in your image. Those who pass away become the light, the truth. The body and truth are one. The truth is ever present and sufficient to the body. In the spirit of truth, one does not need an external source or medium to transubstantiate the body into the truth. One does not need bread and wine to carry the spirit into the body. The truth is already present within the body, just as the truth is present in all things. One must see the light in order to manifest this presence of truth to the knowing of one's self. When the body and truth unite, that is the unity of the holy presence, the holy spirit. You become the spirit because of the body. Jesus says, If the flesh came to be because of the spirit that is a wonder. If the spirit came to be because of the body that is a wonder of wonders...

 

[Sapiens]

I always interpreted it as ritual cannibalism, a hold over from earlier times, prettified for the Pax Romana. It is interesting to read other views on the subject.