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There's only so much Mecca.

dust1n

Zindīq
Any thoughts on the following news story?

"For over a decade, Mecca – the holiest city in Islam – has been undergoing an unprecedented level of reconstruction to accommodate millions of pilgrims arriving year round. However, critics argue the massive expansion efforts have mercilessly destroyed invaluable historical and cultural sites, substituting them for crass commercialization and symbols of Saudi rule.


Without a doubt, Mecca is an extraordinary city. With a history stretching back before 600 BCE, Mecca has always been an important religious and economic center. But after the seventh century, with the emergence of Islam, the city, with the Kaaba at its core, became a commanding symbol of faith and power.

For more than a billion Muslims, prayers must face the direction of the Kaaba and each Muslim must perform pilgrimage to Mecca at least once in their lives.

Today, Mecca and its surroundings – with an estimated resident population of two million living in an area smaller than the city of London – is visited by at least 15 million Muslims throughout the year, three million of them descending at once during the Hajj period.

The level of crowd-management needed to shepherd and ensure safety would be a logistical nightmare for any authority.

“Fifty years ago, Mecca wasn't a huge destination,” explained Abdul-Halim Jabr, an urban design consultant based in Beirut, who had worked for a few projects in the ancient city.

Jabr postulated the problem facing the Saudi kingdom arose after travel became cheaper, which in turn facilitated the growth of package tourism for Hajj and Umrah (a minor pilgrimage, performed at any time). In particular, the urban design consultant said, the increase of quotas by the authorities allowed two things to occur: it offset huge occupational fluctuations during peak and low pilgrimage seasons, and encouraged repeated Umrah visits.

“That occurred before they had a plan for a proactive, protected form of development for Mecca. They have tried to place strict controls for quotas now, but the damage is already done,” Jabr said.

Under the pretext of alleviating these growing pressures, Saudi authorities undertook various construction projects during the last three decades to revamp infrastructure and expand sites like the Grand Mosque, that surrounds the Kaaba, to accommodate the flow of millions of people.

“Mecca, especially the area around the Grand Mosque, is one giant construction zone, bigger than anything I've seen in my life,” said Nasser, a 29 year-old Kuwaiti engineer who visited Mecca twice, once in 2007, and recently in February.

“It's the biggest crowd control dilemma in the world,” he added, “[the authorities] are trying by building trains, highways, and a walkway that circles the Kaaba. It's an engineering nightmare.”

The struggle over heritage

In the past decade, construction quickened and became more ambitious.

An estimated $20 billion has been spent on mega-projects which include a planned train system, mosque expansions, and the construction of fancy hotels and residential and retail complexes.

But these developments have taken a heavy toll on the cultural and historical relics that existed in Mecca for over a thousand years, a majority of which were removed to make way for the modernizing developments.

Saudi authorities, supported by religious scholars, offer a twofold argument for the removal of heritage sites: first, these sites pose security risks for visiting pilgrims due to their structural instability; and secondly, that these sites, while lacking any religious significance, may result in shirq, the worshiping of a person or object at the same level as God.

“The expansions for the Two Holy Mosques cannot be possible without the removal of these historic and religious relics, that can also potentially harm Muslims if they stay,” Saudi-based Sheikh Ibrahim al-Zoaby explained to Al-Akhbar...

The 'Vegasization' of Mecca

Beyond the debate over heritage preservation, another crucial criticism towards the development projects revolve around Mecca's commercialization.

“Mecca, to my regret, has become a site for real estate speculation. The name of the game is proximity to the Kaaba,” Jabr said, “Land is more expensive around the Grand Mosque than prime locations in major cities like New York or Paris.”

Two examples epitomizing these concern are the Jabal Omar complex, a 40-tower site, consisting of five star hotels, high-rises holding more than 500 restaurants and 4,000 commercial and retail shops, and the Abraj al-Bait Towers, which includes the Mecca Clock Royal Tower Hotel, the world's third tallest tower and the world's largest clock.

Like other mega-projects, foundations for the Abraj al-Bait Towers were built above an 18th century Ottoman citadel called the Ajyad Fortress, leveled in 2002.

Moreover, the buildings taking the place of ancient neighborhoods are designed to cater to the wealthy.

The asking price for a small studio apartment at the Abraj Towers starts at around $650,000, while renting a hotel room or apartment close to the Grand Mosque and other historic sites can cost more than $500 per night.

These rates clash with the spirit of Hajj, meant to bring Muslims together regardless of class, nationality, or creed.

“I cannot find anyone who defends the clock-tower, even the most patriotic Saudi cannot defend it. It is a travesty, a huge colossal mistake by any standards – religiously or in terms of urban design,” Jabr opined.

“In the seven years since my last visit, they built the clock-tower and the hotels. It's a monstrosity. Rather than having all eyes fall on the Kaaba, now all eyes look up to the clock-tower,” Nasser remarked.

Nasser further remarked that hotels, retail, and other commercial center logos dominate much of the city...

http://english.al-akhbar.com/node/18888
 

picnic

Active Member
Some people think Mecca was originally Petra. Apparently archaeologists have found no evidence that Mecca was ever an important city as described in the Quran, so probably there isn't much risk of destroying anything of significance to historians by building in Mecca.
 

Unification

Well-Known Member
Any thoughts on the following news story?

"For over a decade, Mecca – the holiest city in Islam – has been undergoing an unprecedented level of reconstruction to accommodate millions of pilgrims arriving year round. However, critics argue the massive expansion efforts have mercilessly destroyed invaluable historical and cultural sites, substituting them for crass commercialization and symbols of Saudi rule.


Without a doubt, Mecca is an extraordinary city. With a history stretching back before 600 BCE, Mecca has always been an important religious and economic center. But after the seventh century, with the emergence of Islam, the city, with the Kaaba at its core, became a commanding symbol of faith and power.

For more than a billion Muslims, prayers must face the direction of the Kaaba and each Muslim must perform pilgrimage to Mecca at least once in their lives.

Today, Mecca and its surroundings – with an estimated resident population of two million living in an area smaller than the city of London – is visited by at least 15 million Muslims throughout the year, three million of them descending at once during the Hajj period.

The level of crowd-management needed to shepherd and ensure safety would be a logistical nightmare for any authority.

“Fifty years ago, Mecca wasn't a huge destination,” explained Abdul-Halim Jabr, an urban design consultant based in Beirut, who had worked for a few projects in the ancient city.

Jabr postulated the problem facing the Saudi kingdom arose after travel became cheaper, which in turn facilitated the growth of package tourism for Hajj and Umrah (a minor pilgrimage, performed at any time). In particular, the urban design consultant said, the increase of quotas by the authorities allowed two things to occur: it offset huge occupational fluctuations during peak and low pilgrimage seasons, and encouraged repeated Umrah visits.

“That occurred before they had a plan for a proactive, protected form of development for Mecca. They have tried to place strict controls for quotas now, but the damage is already done,” Jabr said.

Under the pretext of alleviating these growing pressures, Saudi authorities undertook various construction projects during the last three decades to revamp infrastructure and expand sites like the Grand Mosque, that surrounds the Kaaba, to accommodate the flow of millions of people.

“Mecca, especially the area around the Grand Mosque, is one giant construction zone, bigger than anything I've seen in my life,” said Nasser, a 29 year-old Kuwaiti engineer who visited Mecca twice, once in 2007, and recently in February.

“It's the biggest crowd control dilemma in the world,” he added, “[the authorities] are trying by building trains, highways, and a walkway that circles the Kaaba. It's an engineering nightmare.”

The struggle over heritage

In the past decade, construction quickened and became more ambitious.

An estimated $20 billion has been spent on mega-projects which include a planned train system, mosque expansions, and the construction of fancy hotels and residential and retail complexes.

But these developments have taken a heavy toll on the cultural and historical relics that existed in Mecca for over a thousand years, a majority of which were removed to make way for the modernizing developments.

Saudi authorities, supported by religious scholars, offer a twofold argument for the removal of heritage sites: first, these sites pose security risks for visiting pilgrims due to their structural instability; and secondly, that these sites, while lacking any religious significance, may result in shirq, the worshiping of a person or object at the same level as God.

“The expansions for the Two Holy Mosques cannot be possible without the removal of these historic and religious relics, that can also potentially harm Muslims if they stay,” Saudi-based Sheikh Ibrahim al-Zoaby explained to Al-Akhbar...

The 'Vegasization' of Mecca

Beyond the debate over heritage preservation, another crucial criticism towards the development projects revolve around Mecca's commercialization.

“Mecca, to my regret, has become a site for real estate speculation. The name of the game is proximity to the Kaaba,” Jabr said, “Land is more expensive around the Grand Mosque than prime locations in major cities like New York or Paris.”

Two examples epitomizing these concern are the Jabal Omar complex, a 40-tower site, consisting of five star hotels, high-rises holding more than 500 restaurants and 4,000 commercial and retail shops, and the Abraj al-Bait Towers, which includes the Mecca Clock Royal Tower Hotel, the world's third tallest tower and the world's largest clock.

Like other mega-projects, foundations for the Abraj al-Bait Towers were built above an 18th century Ottoman citadel called the Ajyad Fortress, leveled in 2002.

Moreover, the buildings taking the place of ancient neighborhoods are designed to cater to the wealthy.

The asking price for a small studio apartment at the Abraj Towers starts at around $650,000, while renting a hotel room or apartment close to the Grand Mosque and other historic sites can cost more than $500 per night.

These rates clash with the spirit of Hajj, meant to bring Muslims together regardless of class, nationality, or creed.

“I cannot find anyone who defends the clock-tower, even the most patriotic Saudi cannot defend it. It is a travesty, a huge colossal mistake by any standards – religiously or in terms of urban design,” Jabr opined.

“In the seven years since my last visit, they built the clock-tower and the hotels. It's a monstrosity. Rather than having all eyes fall on the Kaaba, now all eyes look up to the clock-tower,” Nasser remarked.

Nasser further remarked that hotels, retail, and other commercial center logos dominate much of the city...

http://english.al-akhbar.com/node/18888

That there is nothing "holy" about any literal city. Never was, never will be.

That Mecca in Koran, is symbolically referring to the center of the human brain.

Busy bodies building foundations of everything external to them and little building up of their inner foundation.
 

Princeps Eugenius

Active Member
Any thoughts on the following news story?

"For over a decade, Mecca – the holiest city in Islam – has been undergoing an unprecedented level of reconstruction to accommodate millions of pilgrims arriving year round. However, critics argue the massive expansion efforts have mercilessly destroyed invaluable historical and cultural sites, substituting them for crass commercialization and symbols of Saudi rule.


Without a doubt, Mecca is an extraordinary city. With a history stretching back before 600 BCE, Mecca has always been an important religious and economic center. But after the seventh century, with the emergence of Islam, the city, with the Kaaba at its core, became a commanding symbol of faith and power.

For more than a billion Muslims, prayers must face the direction of the Kaaba and each Muslim must perform pilgrimage to Mecca at least once in their lives.

Today, Mecca and its surroundings – with an estimated resident population of two million living in an area smaller than the city of London – is visited by at least 15 million Muslims throughout the year, three million of them descending at once during the Hajj period.

The level of crowd-management needed to shepherd and ensure safety would be a logistical nightmare for any authority.

“Fifty years ago, Mecca wasn't a huge destination,” explained Abdul-Halim Jabr, an urban design consultant based in Beirut, who had worked for a few projects in the ancient city.

Jabr postulated the problem facing the Saudi kingdom arose after travel became cheaper, which in turn facilitated the growth of package tourism for Hajj and Umrah (a minor pilgrimage, performed at any time). In particular, the urban design consultant said, the increase of quotas by the authorities allowed two things to occur: it offset huge occupational fluctuations during peak and low pilgrimage seasons, and encouraged repeated Umrah visits.

“That occurred before they had a plan for a proactive, protected form of development for Mecca. They have tried to place strict controls for quotas now, but the damage is already done,” Jabr said.

Under the pretext of alleviating these growing pressures, Saudi authorities undertook various construction projects during the last three decades to revamp infrastructure and expand sites like the Grand Mosque, that surrounds the Kaaba, to accommodate the flow of millions of people.

“Mecca, especially the area around the Grand Mosque, is one giant construction zone, bigger than anything I've seen in my life,” said Nasser, a 29 year-old Kuwaiti engineer who visited Mecca twice, once in 2007, and recently in February.

“It's the biggest crowd control dilemma in the world,” he added, “[the authorities] are trying by building trains, highways, and a walkway that circles the Kaaba. It's an engineering nightmare.”

The struggle over heritage

In the past decade, construction quickened and became more ambitious.

An estimated $20 billion has been spent on mega-projects which include a planned train system, mosque expansions, and the construction of fancy hotels and residential and retail complexes.

But these developments have taken a heavy toll on the cultural and historical relics that existed in Mecca for over a thousand years, a majority of which were removed to make way for the modernizing developments.

Saudi authorities, supported by religious scholars, offer a twofold argument for the removal of heritage sites: first, these sites pose security risks for visiting pilgrims due to their structural instability; and secondly, that these sites, while lacking any religious significance, may result in shirq, the worshiping of a person or object at the same level as God.

“The expansions for the Two Holy Mosques cannot be possible without the removal of these historic and religious relics, that can also potentially harm Muslims if they stay,” Saudi-based Sheikh Ibrahim al-Zoaby explained to Al-Akhbar...

The 'Vegasization' of Mecca

Beyond the debate over heritage preservation, another crucial criticism towards the development projects revolve around Mecca's commercialization.

“Mecca, to my regret, has become a site for real estate speculation. The name of the game is proximity to the Kaaba,” Jabr said, “Land is more expensive around the Grand Mosque than prime locations in major cities like New York or Paris.”

Two examples epitomizing these concern are the Jabal Omar complex, a 40-tower site, consisting of five star hotels, high-rises holding more than 500 restaurants and 4,000 commercial and retail shops, and the Abraj al-Bait Towers, which includes the Mecca Clock Royal Tower Hotel, the world's third tallest tower and the world's largest clock.

Like other mega-projects, foundations for the Abraj al-Bait Towers were built above an 18th century Ottoman citadel called the Ajyad Fortress, leveled in 2002.

Moreover, the buildings taking the place of ancient neighborhoods are designed to cater to the wealthy.

The asking price for a small studio apartment at the Abraj Towers starts at around $650,000, while renting a hotel room or apartment close to the Grand Mosque and other historic sites can cost more than $500 per night.

These rates clash with the spirit of Hajj, meant to bring Muslims together regardless of class, nationality, or creed.

“I cannot find anyone who defends the clock-tower, even the most patriotic Saudi cannot defend it. It is a travesty, a huge colossal mistake by any standards – religiously or in terms of urban design,” Jabr opined.

“In the seven years since my last visit, they built the clock-tower and the hotels. It's a monstrosity. Rather than having all eyes fall on the Kaaba, now all eyes look up to the clock-tower,” Nasser remarked.

Nasser further remarked that hotels, retail, and other commercial center logos dominate much of the city...

http://english.al-akhbar.com/node/18888
Funny thing is: i have heard, from christian apologists who speak against islam, that mecca isnt mentioned in any important historical account until the 8th century CE. And they make the point that Mecca was founded after Muhammad had passed away. Also that Muhammad had lived and operated in Petra, because most of the early mosques have their Qibla directed to Petra, not Mecca.
 

Politesse

Amor Vincit Omnia
Mina stampede deaths rise to 769

I don't really know what else they could do. They have to respond to the reality that 3 million people represent. It's already had the effect of forcing "symbolic" acts to substitute for what used to be literal elements of the Hajj; much of Mecca looks like an airport concourse. But that's our world now.
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
I love how the Al-Sauds destroy more historical parts of Mecca every year and place huge ugly hotels right next to their most holy place.

It's so fun because I always imagine how mental they would go if the same would happen in Jerusalem. :D
 

Princeps Eugenius

Active Member
I love how the Al-Sauds destroy more historical parts of Mecca every year and place huge ugly hotels right next to their most holy place.

It's so fun because I always imagine how mental they would go if the same would happen in Jerusalem. :D
They are you brothers and sister in blood, if Abraham is your father. You should show more respect to them :D.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
Ajyad_Fortress.jpg


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajyad_Fortress

Was leveled to make room for this:

450px-Abraj-al-Bait-Towers.JPG


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecca_Royal_Hotel_Clock_Tower


But, I suppose to be fair, the former was actually a Turkish remnant from the 1780's, the Ottoman Empire and all.

I'm curious to how Muslims view this sort of mega cit development stuff. Is it a sign of success, or a sign of something bad?


As far as arguments about Mecca is concerned, I have no idea. That's certainly something it seems like I get my *** handed to me in debate frequently these days.
 

Politesse

Amor Vincit Omnia
If "Muslims" are anything like the Muslim folks of my own acquaintance, there is no one consensus on Mecca and its management. Criticisms abound, but you know, people still make the pilgrimage and it still changes lives, and in my own opinion, I don't think that could happen as well as it does had some of these changes not been made. For instance, people do need to stay somewhere - would the city really be more "holy" looking if the hotels were ugly tenements instead of modern buildings?
 

picnic

Active Member
The thing about the clock tower that bothers me is the architectural style. It looks like it belongs in London instead of Mecca. The buildings should look like mud brick. There should be tents, domes, camels, mosaics, ...
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
The thing about the clock tower that bothers me is the architectural style. It looks like it belongs in London instead of Mecca. The buildings should look like mud brick. There should be tents, domes, camels, mosaics, ...

They are more going for "ugly". So it should be all right if they also go for ugly with every other new building.
 

MARCELLO

Transitioning from male to female
I do not know why they build like there is no space left around. Mecca is not Hong Kong island.
Probably plots around Kaba belongs to royal family and they get huge money from there.
 

mahasn ebn sawresho

Well-Known Member
sites, while lacking any religious significance, may result in shirq, the worshiping of a person or object at the same level as God.
Is the pilgrimage is a special worship in God ??
The Hajj is one of the pagan traditions
Is kissing the Black Stone is to worship God ??
Muslims go to Mecca even kissing the Black Stone ?
Is this a cult ?
Zama details on archaeological sites
I do not care about him
 

Politesse

Amor Vincit Omnia
I do not know why they build like there is no space left around. Mecca is not Hong Kong island.
Probably plots around Kaba belongs to royal family and they get huge money from there.
It's not like its all open desert, there's a giant metropolis surrounding it.
 

MARCELLO

Transitioning from male to female
It's not like its all open desert, there's a giant metropolis surrounding it.
Check on map,there is nothing but dune surrounding Mecca. The populous cities of Saudi Arabia are Jeddah and her capital Riyad. I have been there, trust my knowledge.
 

Politesse

Amor Vincit Omnia
Check on map,there is nothing but dune surrounding Mecca. The populous cities of Saudi Arabia are Jeddah and her capital Riyad. I have been there, trust my knowledge.
Its 1.6 million citizens must be really good at hiding behind sand dunes to have evaded your notice so thoroughly.
 
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