Theistic and Laveyan?

[MaddLlama]

Is there any overlap between Theistic Luciferianism and LaVeyan Satanism? Are there any concepts between the two that are incompatible?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I was just about to ask a similiar question myself.
I am wondering, do Luciferians adhere to the Satanic Bible?

 

[Ðanisty]

Well Satanism and Luciferianism aren't exactly the same thing. Let me see if I can break it down:

Satanists - Believe that Satan represents mankind's true nature as an animal no better or worse than other animals. Satanism promotes what Christianity considers sinful because it is natural do do these things. Abstinence is understood by Satanists to cause people to develop unhealthy obsessions whereas indulgence allows humans an outlet for our natural urges. Think of it like this. If you go on a strict diet and don't allow yourself any treats at all, you're more likely to go overboard one day and eat a gallon of ice cream. If you allow yourself an ice cream cone every once in awhile, you're more likely to be satisfied with what you have. Satanism is a rather self-centered religion, but Satanists do not see this as a flaw at all. This does not mean that Satanists are selfish or uncaring...simply that they reserve these things for the few they care about the most. The idea is that loving your enemy dilutes the meaning of the word and makes it far less special to love your friends. There's a whole bunch more, but we can get into that later if you want.

• Modern Satanists...mostly commonly called LaVeyan Satanists. Obviously they adhere to the Satanic bible. They view Satan as an archetype or sort of icon rather than a real being. Outsiders often get confused about this because Satanists do perform rituals. These rituals, however, are meant to satisfy the Satanist, not Satan.
• Theistic Satanists...primarily view things the same way but of course believe that Satan is a real entity. Whether or not they worship Satan will depend on the individual and the definition of worship. You would be very hard-pressed to find a Satanist who submits to Satan as that goes completely against the entire philosophy. Satanists who do claim to worship Satan will mean that they honor, respect, and admire Satan, but do not bow down to him. Anyone you meet who claims to bow down to Satan does not understand the nature of their religion. They are honestly probably young kids who want to be cool and rebel against society. They're basically insecure and want to get a reaction out of people.

Luciferians - First of all generally see Lucifer and Satan as seperate beings/concepts. Occasionally you will meet a Luciferian who sees Lucifer and Satan as two sides of the same coin. Usually you only find this with Modern Luciferians. Luciferians are pretty easy going about the origins of Lucifer and which beliefs actually classify as Luciferian. It can range from the biblical fallen angel to Prometheus to various Egyptian and Sumerian deities. The basic concept is always the same (and indeed there seems to be a Lucifer character in many different mythologies). Lucifer is seen as the true savior and hero of the story because he chooses to stand up for man against another/more powerful deity. In Christian mythology, this begins with the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden. Luciferians tend to be less interested in the social aspect of rebellion and more interested in the intellectual rebellion. For Luciferians, the ultimate goal is to learn as much as possible. Knowledge is indeed power. There are some strong similarities between Luciferianism and Gnosticism. In fact, I've even know people who consider themselves Gnostic Luciferians.

• Modern Luciferians...like Modern (LaVeyan) Satanists are atheistic. They see Lucifer as an archetype that represents courage, independence, freedom, intelligence, justice, etc.
• Theistic Luciferians...believe primarily the same things but are obviously theists and function much like theistic Satanists.

Now, for the actual questions. Obviously one of the biggest differences between LaVeyan Satanism and Theistic Luciferianism is the theism. The second large difference is the emphasis, being either on Satan or Lucifer. Satanists tend to see much less of a distinction between the two than Luciferians. Often Satanists are confused why Luciferians wish to be classified separately. The focus of Luciferianism is very internal. This is not to say that we have no interest in things of a carnal nature or that we don't care about social issues. It's just that we see more usefulness in changing and improving ourselves than in trying to change the ideas of everyone around us. You will find a lot of similarities I think because in one way or another Satan and Lucifer both represent a rebellious nature. Also, I have found that many Luciferians were once Satanists, so naturally some ideas have carried over. I wouldn't say that Luciferians necessarily disapprove of anything in the Satanic bible, but most of us think that many of LaVey's ideas are not important or useful for us.

 

[IanAlmighty]

:clap2:

 

[ayani]

Danisty- reading through your description of Luciferianism, it kind of reminds me of some Gnostic, Manichean ideas. have these been influential ideas in Luciferianism?

 

[lunamoth]

Nice summary Danisty, thank you for the info.

Are Luciferians communal in any way? Do Luciferians or Satanists participate in interfaith ecumenical-type projects or interfaith charitable projects? For example, I'll be helping organize a CROP Walk for world hunger relief this summer. Often teams are organized around churches, but they can also be organized around other groups (like, I may also ask my MOMs support club if they want to form a team). Would there be a Luciferian group I could contact to see if they would like to participate?

Another example, I was once part of an interfaith group that worked on charitable projects in our town and also did things like organize inter-faith prayers or seminars. Is this something Luciferians would be interested in?

 

[Ðanisty]

Nice summary Danisty, thank you for the info.

Are Luciferians communal in any way? Do Luciferians or Satanists participate in interfaith ecumenical-type projects or interfaith charitable projects? For example, I'll be helping organize a CROP Walk for world hunger relief this summer. Often teams are organized around churches, but they can also be organized around other groups (like, I may also ask my MOMs support club if they want to form a team). Would there be a Luciferian group I could contact to see if they would like to participate?

Another example, I was once part of an interfaith group that worked on charitable projects in our town and also did things like organize inter-faith prayers or seminars. Is this something Luciferians would be interested in?

Good luck trying to find the Luciferians...lol. We are even more solitary and reclusive than the Satanists. As individuals though, I wouldn't be surprised at all to find them interested in humanitarian things like that.

In all honesty, Luciferians and Satanists do not always get along...lol. I'm hesitant to discuss it unless maybe Ian wants to...lol.

 

[IanAlmighty]

Nice summary Danisty, thank you for the info.

Are Luciferians communal in any way? Do Luciferians or Satanists participate in interfaith ecumenical-type projects or interfaith charitable projects? For example, I'll be helping organize a CROP Walk for world hunger relief this summer. Often teams are organized around churches, but they can also be organized around other groups (like, I may also ask my MOMs support club if they want to form a team). Would there be a Luciferian group I could contact to see if they would like to participate?

Another example, I was once part of an interfaith group that worked on charitable projects in our town and also did things like organize inter-faith prayers or seminars. Is this something Luciferians would be interested in?

Luciferian groups? Satanists in interfaith charitable projects? This post is more confusing than you realize.

 

[Ðanisty]

Luciferian groups? Satanists in interfaith charitable projects? This post is more confusing than you realize.

*nod* If a Satanist or Luciferian is interested in doing charitable things, they will more than likely do it on their own and probably not mention their religion at all.

 

[lunamoth]

*nod* If a Satanist or Luciferian is interested in doing charitable things, they will more than likely do it on their own and probably not mention their religion at all.

OK. Thank you for the replies.

 

[Dr. Nosophoros]

Labels are a funny thing
Join the Cult Of Dagon, you will soon see past these things- it's free.

I bet his hair smells like fish, he might be bald though so I guess in that case, his scalp would.

 

[IanAlmighty]

Hardy-har-har.

 

[Dr. Nosophoros]

Still a label to me- and that isn't funny.

 

[shadow_fire]

• Modern Satanists...mostly commonly called LaVeyan Satanists. Obviously they adhere to the Satanic bible. They view Satan as an archetype or sort of icon rather than a real being. Outsiders often get confused about this because Satanists do perform rituals. These rituals, however, are meant to satisfy the Satanist, not Satan.
• Theistic Satanists...primarily view things the same way but of course believe that Satan is a real entity. Whether or not they worship Satan will depend on the individual and the definition of worship. You would be very hard-pressed to find a Satanist who submits to Satan as that goes completely against the entire philosophy. Satanists who do claim to worship Satan will mean that they honor, respect, and admire Satan, but do not bow down to him. Anyone you meet who claims to bow down to Satan does not understand the nature of their religion. They are honestly probably young kids who want to be cool and rebel against society. They're basically insecure and want to get a reaction out of people.

Luciferians - First of all generally see Lucifer and Satan as seperate beings/concepts. Occasionally you will meet a Luciferian who sees Lucifer and Satan as two sides of the same coin. Usually you only find this with Modern Luciferians. Luciferians are pretty easy going about the origins of Lucifer and which beliefs actually classify as Luciferian. It can range from the biblical fallen angel to Prometheus to various Egyptian and Sumerian deities. The basic concept is always the same (and indeed there seems to be a Lucifer character in many different mythologies). Lucifer is seen as the true savior and hero of the story because he chooses to stand up for man against another/more powerful deity. In Christian mythology, this begins with the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden. Luciferians tend to be less interested in the social aspect of rebellion and more interested in the intellectual rebellion. For Luciferians, the ultimate goal is to learn as much as possible. Knowledge is indeed power. There are some strong similarities between Luciferianism and Gnosticism. In fact, I've even know people who consider themselves Gnostic Luciferians.

• Modern Luciferians...like Modern (LaVeyan) Satanists are atheistic. They see Lucifer as an archetype that represents courage, independence, freedom, intelligence, justice, etc.
• Theistic Luciferians...believe primarily the same things but are obviously theists and function much like theistic Satanists.

Thanks for the great post! that really taught me alot

 

[Ðanisty]

Thanks for the great post! that really taught me alot

You're welcome! I like your avatar, by the way.

 

[shadow_fire]

You're welcome! I like your avatar, by the way.

Thank you! I've been been thinking I should use the Symbol of Chaos somewhere, and where better then a Religous forum?